total time: 9.86 minutes
total words: 836
[Danielle Balocca]: Hey, Medford Bites listeners. As promised, Ms. Whalen's eighth grade class from the Andrews Middle School is back to present a continuation of their work regarding their dress code. A school committee meeting that will discuss this very topic and the feedback of these students is happening tonight. I really hope you enjoy the students' thoughtful insights into their dress code policy and ways that they're fighting for equity. All right, I'm here with Ms. Whalen's class at the Andrews Middle School. We're doing an update on the No Cap podcast. And a couple of students are gonna start by sharing their favorite place to eat in Medford and what they like to eat there. Let's do it first. So if you could say your name, pronouns, and then answer the question.
[SPEAKER_04]: My name's Giancarlo, he, him, and I like to eat at Bob's Italian Foods.
[SPEAKER_03]: My name is Duke, my pronouns are he, him, and I like to eat at Ronnie's place.
[SPEAKER_05]: My name is Moncello, my pronouns are he, him, and I like to eat at Michi's.
[Danielle Balocca]: My name is Frank, he, him, and I like to eat at Columns. Great, thank you. So if we could start off, I know we listened to your podcast where you ended talking about how you wanted to go to the school committee to share some of your thoughts and ideas about the dress code and the student handbook. And we also have school committee member Paul Rousseau here to join us. But if anybody wants to give an update about what's happened since you guys recorded that podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're getting closer to going up to school committee to introduce our idea. We also got a proposal to a new dress code from committee member Ruseau. Just getting a lot of feedback from and help from school committee members and other members such.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thank you. And could anybody share what some of that feedback was, what you shared with the school committee about changes to the dress code?
[SPEAKER_04]: So we were petitioning against the hats and hoods rule because we wanted to wear them. And some of the other girls and some boys wanted to wear like tighter t-shirts or like different style clothing that's usually dress coded. So we were also sort of petitioning against that.
[Danielle Balocca]: So that's something I think what you mentioned there at the end was something that you that you didn't get a chance to talk about in the no cap episode which was beyond hats and hoods What are some of the other issues with the dress code that you guys have thought about or proposed ideas for?
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a It's a lot of, it's very targeted towards certain groups of people based on body type and race and sex, other things like that.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thank you. Does anybody want to share a little bit more about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I myself have gotten dress-coded for the type of shirt I've worn, but I've seen that other females that have different body types haven't gotten dress-coded, and I asked them, have they gotten dress-coded, and they said no.
[Danielle Balocca]: So you're saying somebody could be wearing almost the exact same outfit as you, but because their body type is different, they're not getting the same?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thanks for sharing that. Anybody else?
[SPEAKER_03]: very targeted towards different people mostly colored people because I think they see them as quote-unquote like hoodlums or stuff like that as a racist like notation or what's it called stereotype
[Danielle Balocca]: I was really struck by some of the stuff you talked about in the first episode about the different types of people that were targeted differently for wearing hats and hoods and sort of why. So I think there was some talk about like, if you're wearing a hood, women might not be able to identify you in a fight, right? So equating violence with that type of clothing, right? And then also your point, Carlos, about how that intersects with race, too.
[Paul Ruseau]: How about Mr. Russo, anything that you'd like to add or think about? Sure. We did meet on, I believe, this past Wednesday, our final subcommittee meeting on the new dress code. And it was very interesting. The conversation went long. The meeting went longer than it was planned for. And the conversation really centered on the differences between the policy around gender. We had already covered stuff around body type, and certainly hats and hoods are, if this pass will be allowed. And footwear was something I think some of the students actually wrote about in their feedback that I received. But this past Wednesday, the differences in gender were really on display. I highly recommend watching if it's on YouTube. You know, there was a lot of conversation around, it felt like the policy conversation was centered around students who might want to make a statement, which we talked about, you know, what if, and it was explicit, what if girls wanted to come to school in a two-piece bikini? And I mean, aside from the fact that I don't know all the girls in the school, but I don't suspect a lot of them have any interest in that. But that kind of evolved a bit into, well, so if it's bathing suits, then boys might want to wear bathing suit bottoms to school, and nobody's going to dress code them for it. So this idea that the rules need to be the same for everybody, whatever they end up being. They have to be the same. And society is not done with sexism at all. As everybody here surely understands, it's still pervasive. But it was a very interesting conversation and somewhat heated, actually. So that's where we finished.
[Danielle Balocca]: Yeah, I'm curious for the students. So it sounds like you've made some really great observations about what's wrong with the dress code. And I wonder if you have any thoughts about what a fair dress code might look like.
[SPEAKER_01]: a fair dress code problem with just them dress coding boys and girls, not just females. Because I haven't seen them dress code boys about the certain type of shirts they wear at school, like showing their shoulders. But in the handbook, I think it says when females show their shoulders, it's distracting to boys. So I want them to think about when the boys show their shoulders, what does it do to females?
[Danielle Balocca]: That's a great point. And I was actually going to ask about that, what the tank top rule is. So a girl showing her shoulders is not OK, but a boy wearing a tank top, it sounds like, is seen and enforced differently.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it is less dress-coded when a boy wears like a tight white tank top or something like that, but the teachers do tell the boys to put like an overshirt or something because their muscles are out or whatever that is. So I've seen it before, but it's like a lot less than the girls.
[Danielle Balocca]: What do you think about this point that you brought up about distraction?
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like shoulders aren't as attracting to me. If a female comes to school with a crop top that's sleeveless, I don't feel like it's distracting. It's just a part of a human body. Everyone has shoulders. It's not attracting. But I haven't seen boys just come up to a female and say, oh, you have nice shoulders. It hasn't happened.
[Danielle Balocca]: Yeah, and that their responsibility for distraction is on the girls, it sounds like. Yeah. And so I'm thinking of a scenario, right? Right now, it's very warm in here, right? Like, I'm sweating. And so I wonder how distracting it would be to have to wear more clothing than you're comfortable in because of the weather, right? And that being a distraction for the person wearing the clothing while sort of not thinking about the other distraction.
[Paul Ruseau]: Can I just say something about distraction? Please. So distraction is one of the responses I got and the feedback from the students was truly fascinating in that it looked at the word distraction from a perspective I hadn't considered. Just using the word distraction actually is, in my mind, is a problem. It's actually part of the policy because I think it will be understood, but the notion another person is a distraction really is problematic. But this is an educational setting where I think learning how to cope with distractions. I mean, we're all out in life outside of school, and other people may be wearing things, saying things, doing things that we find uncomfortable, or we really are comfortable with them. And it's not on those people to be changed so that we can be comfortable. There was a time when people who had physical disabilities in this country, literally, they were not out in society. They were locked up in buildings. And that was not to protect them. That was so that the rest of us didn't have to see them. And we gave that up a long time ago, thankfully. But this notion that we should live our lives and never experience anything that we find uncomfortable and distracting is not a future I want to live in. And learning how to deal with things that are distracting is part of growing up.
[Danielle Balocca]: A couple of you mentioned the enforcement of the dress code. So can anyone describe what happens when you get dress coded?
[SPEAKER_01]: You get a referral. It's on your record. Not like, not your record. It's on your name. So it's like how many referrals you get. You get social probation. But it's a referral that you get and then just a random referral about you getting dress coded. Just a quick word about this answer. The teachers wanted me to let you know that
[Danielle Balocca]: Social probation is only if there's a certain number of referrals within a specific time period, and more serious violations result in referrals. So theoretically, you could get enough referrals about the dress code for a student to be put on social probation, but that's not usually the sole reason a student could be placed on social probation. One reason for getting a referral could be the way that someone responds to being dress coded, and if that's done in a way that is disrespectful, sometimes that can result in a referral.
[SPEAKER_04]: another thing I noticed I'm pretty sure in the handbook it says like no open-toe shoes are allowed which I disagree with because I like to wear my like slides or sandals or whatever but they don't dress code us on slides or like crocs or whatever we have like I've seen I've seen people wear open-toe shoes sometimes no socks but they don't dress code them but they would dress code for like a short skirt or a hoodie or something similar
[Danielle Balocca]: Yeah, and the close-toe shoes, which I'm violating that rule right now. It seems like a safety thing versus what we're talking about, like distraction. It sounds like a little bit of a calling out, too, and I wonder about what it feels like to be dress-coded.
[SPEAKER_01]: It feels, I like, whenever I get dress coded, I have an argument about it because it's not fair to get dress coded and nobody else, like, the other people that I've seen haven't got dress coded. So I argue about it, I said, like, why dress code me when there's no one else that's being dress coded but me? Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: another thing that's very unfair is say a boy wears a hoodie they'll just tell him to take it off but then when a girl wears like a certain type of like clothing a short skirt or like open shoulder shirt they'll get a referral while the boy wouldn't get a referral for a hoodie
[Danielle Balocca]: I remember when I was in middle school, spaghetti straps, I don't know if this is still thin, but they're like skinny tank tops that mostly girls would wear. I remember a friend being called out in class and then being sent home to change. And that, like if we're talking about disruptions and distractions, she missed part of her day at school for that. And so yeah, it does seem like there is more than just like a rule enforcement here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like, my friend has a hoodie that she wore to school one day, and they made her go home and change and come back with a different hoodie. But recently I saw a boy wear a shirt with the, like, whatever the hoodie had, and he didn't get sent home. He stayed in school. The only thing the principal did was just talk to him about it. That's it.
[SPEAKER_04]: another thing is i'm not gonna say the name of this boy but he comes to school every day with like a open ribbed tank top and nobody dress codes him about it and he has uh big muscles but And it's kind of exposing his ribs. But he doesn't get dress code, and nobody talks to him about it. So I'm just saying it's very inequitable.
[Danielle Balocca]: I wonder, too, about clothes. You talk about clothes that maybe don't fit. And sometimes we think that's a fashion choice. And sometimes it may be an issue of being able to afford new clothes and how that could be unequally enforced among kids based on their socioeconomic status. So how did you guys feel about bringing this to the school committee?
[SPEAKER_04]: It feels good. I like that we're trying to change it. And I think we might have a chance at succeeding.
[Paul Ruseau]: Wasn't a chance, for sure. Yeah, Paul, how did it feel to get feedback from the students? The feedback was incredible. I didn't expect it. It just came out of the blue, the written feedback. And I mean, it was great. I mean, I don't know if it's part of an English assignment, but it was well written. And I know there's an obsession with how many paragraphs for MCAS and all that stuff. But it was well written, well thought out. And really, I didn't need to reply and ask questions, which is great, because then I could just take it in. And mostly, it just affirmed where we were headed with the new policy. And so that, you know, one of the things in a couple of the feedback emails we got was there is a desire that I sort of got from the emails to have sort of like an explicit list of what's allowed. And I understand that desire because the concern is interpretation, that everybody reading it will think something different. The challenge I had with including a list of explicit things that can be worn was, first of all, that's going to change continuously. It would be hard to have an exhaustive list. And looking at the core point of the policy, it's just like you wear a top, you wear a bottom, you wear something on your feet. In my mind, at least for now, that is enough to say that anything that's a top, a bottom, or something on your feet is considered OK. If after, you know, after this rolls out in the fall, assuming it passes, it's not working the way we want, we simply go back and edit it and change it. That's the nice thing about policy, unlike law, which is a real pain to change. we can just bring the policy up at the next meeting and literally change it right then and there if we need to. So if we've made any mistakes, which definitely happens, we'll fix it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I also feel like it's very unfair because it might feel on how the teacher feels that day, or it might just be on that teacher's opinion rather than the actual rules or how exposing the piece of clothing is.
[Paul Ruseau]: But we did talk about that, actually, in the last meeting on Wednesday, exactly that issue that respect is a very, very squishy word. And when I grew up, what it meant to be respectfully dressed was different than probably the people who graduated five years after me and five years after that. It's continuously changing. But my idea of respect is based on what I experienced as a teenager. It hasn't changed. I mean, and I think for most adults, that's the case. So as you point out, each individual teacher will probably have a different idea of what's respectfully dressed. And that's an impossible ask for students to know. So that's why it's important that the policy be the same. And that, in many regards, the comfort level of the individual teachers and other staff members can't be part of the policy, because it's different for every one of them.
[Danielle Balocca]: It sounds like without having lists of things that you can and can't wear, and making this sort of more vague policy helps it to be less objective, right? Like we can say, you're wearing a top, a bottom, and shoes, you pass. Right. And Mr. Oso, is there a timeline for when we should be paying attention to this coming up in school committee, or when you all vote on it?
[Paul Ruseau]: Sure, the next school committee meeting where it will be presented for hopefully approval, I'm pretty confident it will be approved, is on June 6. And then we'll discuss, I mean, that's almost the end of the school year. It's generally not a good idea to try and change the policy that all of the staff and students understand within days of the end of school. So it would roll out in the fall. how that would get rolled out and how everybody would get notified, handbooks get updated. That's not a school committee thing, but yeah, so.
[Danielle Balocca]: So hopefully by the fall, if we have time, we can come back. Great.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mr. Russo, I actually have a question for you, and that was, Wow, I actually forgot my question. That's OK. What did you think of it?
[Danielle Balocca]: OK, yeah, I'll let you know. But as all of you know, you can participate in that meeting. You can share your support vocally, verbally at that meeting, either by Zoom or in person.
[SPEAKER_04]: You remember? OK, so I remember. So is the handbook the same for the high school as the middle schools? Is that the same handbook?
[Paul Ruseau]: There are sections of the handbooks for all levels of school that are the same. Middle and high school, certainly, this would be the same. I don't know if in elementary school they would be a little different. They have recess, and I think there's recess in middle school still? Yeah. Yeah. But when you're dealing with five-year-olds, I think there might be some differences around how they implement what's an OK thing to wear when you're going outside and it's 25 degrees. My own son's 15, and I'm going to bet plenty of people in this room have gone outside in frigid weather in a t-shirt and shorts and been perfectly fine, because you all somehow don't experience cold. But allowing a five-year-old to do that is probably not something that they'd want to allow at the elementary level. But certainly middle and high school, that language should be exactly the same. So they do also share the hoodie rule, correct? Well, at the high school right now, I have no idea whether hoodies are allowed or not. And I think that's part of the problem with the current policy is there's a lot of room for interpretation. And not even interpretation, just a lot of room for individual principals to make up their own mind about what does the policy say. The new policy should take that away and make it consistent
[Danielle Balocca]: Does anybody else have any other questions or things they want to add? This started as like a question in your civics class, right? And who remembers when you started this project?
[SPEAKER_04]: So what happened, we were trying to edit the Constitution, and I think it was like the Senate, like we made up the House of Representatives and the President and the Senate in our civic class. And so I was a part of the Senate, and I think one of the girls who wasn't here was also a part of the Senate. And then Marcello and Will were part of the Senate. And we were trying to joke around saying that we would like Find a way to make a rule to allow hats and hoods and we weren't actually being serious. I don't think but Mr. Tremonti our civics teacher. He heard it and he thought we were acting serious. I'm pretty sure so he actually Wanted us to do it and now we are here.
[Danielle Balocca]: How long ago did that start?
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to say I like the beginning of the year Okay
[Danielle Balocca]: Well, that's great. So that's only a few months to go from now. And you guys have managed to come up with a plan, write some feedback, deliver it to school committee. And Mr. Russo is saying, likely be able to implement a change in the dress code by next week.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[Danielle Balocca]: I think that's pretty incredible.
[Paul Ruseau]: I'm getting really chills. Like, it's amazing. And on school committee, it's like, the school committee, we're not doing this, no offense to teachers. We're not doing it for teachers. And we're not doing it for parents. We're doing it for kids and young adults. And it's the hardest thing is getting to hear from you all. So this is just, for me, it's very exciting because, you know, hopefully this will be an example of how you can actually affect and change how things operate.
[SPEAKER_04]: Personally, I never thought we would even like be in this situation.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I thought we were just gonna like not get too far with it But then it turned into like a really big thing as John Carlos said, you know, like we're here Persistent and made some compelling arguments Okay, so my final question
[Danielle Balocca]: What is meaningful for you about being able to sort of wear whatever you feel comfortable in, whatever you want, being able to choose your own clothes for school? We can express ourselves in the way that we feel.
[SPEAKER_04]: It distinguishes us from everybody else and it shows our uniqueness. It shows who we are.
[SPEAKER_03]: Make you feel comfortable around the people that you need to go to see every day. It can make you feel more positive. Represent stuff.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think it's one of the good things about public school, not having to wear a uniform.
[Danielle Balocca]: Yeah, no uniform. Well, I really appreciate you all being here, being willing to share this all with me. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks so much to Ms. Whalen's class and to Paul Russo. Wishing you all luck tonight at the school committee meeting. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. And as always, if you have feedback about this episode or ideas for future episodes, you can email medfordpod at gmail.com. You can also subscribe, rate, and review the podcast on Spotify and Apple podcasts. Thanks so much for listening. Guys, what's the name of the podcast? Never Bites. Never Bites. Good job.
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