[Tom Hamel]: Right. Got it. Well, thank you. Uh, thank you, Francis and welcome to April's, uh, commission for persons with disability meeting. Um, or no way. It's not April. It's May. Um, welcome to May and, uh, why don't we go around and we'll introduce ourselves. I'll start. I'm Tom Hamill. I'm the. I'm the chair of the commission and I've been on for three years. Marsha, would you like to go next?
[Marcia Kirssen]: Okay. I'm Marsha Kirsten. I think I've been on the role of Wes and Tom and it's been quite a lovely experience.
[Tom Hamel]: Gabby, would you like to go next? Gabby, would you like to go?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Sure. Sorry, I couldn't hear. My name is Gabby. My pronouns are she, her, hers. I've been on the commission since about 2019, 2020, somewhere around there, a couple of years now.
[Smith]: And Linda, would you like to go next? I'm Linda Braden. My pronouns are she, her, hers. I'm the vice chair of the commission, and I've been on the commission for two years now. And I will pop it over to Joseph.
[MCM00001818_SPEAKER_06]: Hi, I'm Joe. I've only been on the board for about four or five months. I will find my niche eventually, but I'm learning a lot. Thank you.
[Tom Hamel]: Great. Thank you.
[Frances Nwajei]: Of course, I was on mute. Hi, everyone. I'm Frances. I'm the DEI director and staff with the commission. And Joe, your niche is right here. Welcome.
[Tom Hamel]: Great. So let me look at the agenda. So our first item is to, this is why I had April on my mind. We're going to review the April meeting minutes. Before we start, I was confused. In my notes, I wasn't sure if Heather attended our April meeting or not. Does anybody know?
[Frances Nwajei]: Heather was not present for the April meeting.
[Tom Hamel]: Okay. So we'll just need to amend the minutes to take her name off there.
[Frances Nwajei]: Okay.
[Unidentified]: We'll make note.
[Tom Hamel]: All right. Anybody have any other corrections to the minutes? Anybody, anybody want to make a motion to pass the minutes?
[Adam Hurtubise]: I can make a motion to pass the minutes.
[Tom Hamel]: We have a second. Oh, wait, do we have enough for a quorum? Hold on.
[Smith]: There are five of you.
[Tom Hamel]: Okay, good. Is there a second?
[Smith]: I can second.
[Tom Hamel]: Thank you, Linda. All in favor?
[Smith]: Aye.
[Tom Hamel]: Anyone opposed? All right, it's unanimous. All right, so we'll move to new business. An open meeting law presentation from Janelle Austin. Go ahead, Janelle. Thank you for joining us.
[Austin]: Thank you. Can everyone hear me okay?
[Unidentified]: It's great.
[Austin]: Nice to be with all of you this evening. Thank you for having me. Francis was nice enough to invite me to your meeting tonight just to give an overview of the open meeting law. I know many of you are probably very familiar with the open meeting law and what it requires. I always think it's a good, good idea to do a refresher every couple of years. It doesn't hurt. The law, while it doesn't change fundamentally very often, there are things the past couple of years that have come up. There's also been a variety of items to so-called flag or identify for all of the members this evening. So it's really going to be an overview of the legal requirements. Certainly, if you have any questions, this is going to be an overview of the topic. There's a lot here. And so if there are any specific questions, particularly where this is a public meeting, I would ask that you reach out to Francis directly to ask those questions and then I'd be certainly happy to get back to any member directly on their questions, if that works for everyone this evening. Frances, is there an ability for me to do a screen share? I do have a presentation that I just wanted to go over.
[Frances Nwajei]: Yes, certainly. Sorry, I did not think of that earlier. All right, you should be able to now. Great, thank you so much.
[Unidentified]: Can everyone see that okay?
[Austin]: Yes? Yes. Okay, great. So we're here to really go over the current trends and an overview of the open meeting law. Like I said, if there are, we do work as council for the city of Medford. If there are any specific questions, feel free to reach out directly to Francis on that. But really wanted to go over this in in sort of a broad brush in terms of, you know, what, what is the open meeting law, what is the public records law that's a whole other different statute that we're not going to go in in detail tonight, but certainly wanted to make everyone aware of it. And I will make a copy of this available to Frances if she wants to circulate it, because it's always a good idea just to have a reference document. Open meeting law and public records are what we call sunshine laws. They're really to, you know, put sunshine on the government and show how transparent the government is doing, what your public body is doing on behalf of the community, and really to identify and allow members of the public to see what happens at all of your meetings. And so that's really the public purpose of the open meeting law, to make sure that public business is conducted, you know, without these, with the exception of these narrow reasons, which we'll talk about in a little bit, you know, in a way that members of the public can really see what transpires. And while there's not an obligation to have them participate, to certainly have them see what government is doing in your community. So the open meeting law really covers a couple of different topics, you know what type we're going to cover tonight, you know what types of meetings are subject to the law. What rules need to be followed to hold a meeting and what are some common violations and why we work with cities and towns across the Commonwealth, and so you see sort of trends in terms of. you know, what needs to be followed and potential violations. And I say that not to certainly scare any members here this evening, but just to make sure everyone's aware of what the law does require to make sure there's compliance with the open meeting law. So the open meeting law addresses essentially four major issues. And that is, again, all in this construct and this belief that things should open in a transparent manner. So what we do know is the open meeting law requires that your meetings be noticed, right? That there's a meeting agenda. And we know that the timing for those is no less than 48 week day outdoors prior. We know that the location has to be an accessible location and it has to be posted in a location that's accessible 24 hours a day, including the city's website. And that any virtual or remote information also be accessible to members of the public, but also be able to be accessed by any member of the public that would want to attend a meeting, whether it's held in person or of course virtually as we are this evening. So it also talks about what the nature of a meeting is. There is a presumption, you'll hear me talk about this a lot this evening, that there's what we call an open meeting, which is what we're having this evening. It's a meeting where members of the public can come in and listen to your meeting. There's also a closed session or executive session, which is for very narrow purposes of when there's, a notion that something has to maintain its confidentiality. So we'll talk about that, but there's a presumption that your public body will conduct its business in open session, allowing members of the public to see what happens and follow any business that's conducted essentially in real time. So the conduct of a meeting, whoops, lost my, The conduct of a meeting there's a difference between a meeting and a hearing, so a meeting is is what we're having this evening it's to conduct public business it's to really. You know, ensure that that your Commission is is. conducting and reviewing matters within this jurisdiction. A hearing is a public hearing on a liquor license, for instance, or a zoning or a land use matter. So there's a difference between a meeting and a hearing. And you may have circumstances where you have a meeting, but it's not a hearing. And why is that important? Well, at a public hearing, there is public input. There's often a chance for both opponents and proponents to speak at that public hearing. And there may be different legal requirements. So I always say we should know if we're going into a meeting or a hearing. We know that we can have remote and hybrid meetings. Certainly that was allowable before for commissions again. for your commission. We also know that since 2020, as a result of COVID legislation, we've extended the ability for everyone to have remote meetings if they so choose until 2025. And we'll talk about that. Some public bodies are meeting completely remotely, as we are this evening. Some are meeting in person and some are meeting in what we call a hybrid state. We also know that the open meeting law requires that you prepare, as you just did, discuss your meeting minutes. We know that the meeting minutes have to basically allow someone who is not present at your meeting to show or to know what was discussed. We know that it has to indicate who attended your meeting, any votes that were taken, the date and time and the location of the meeting. And basically, while it doesn't have to be a transcript, it does have to provide, I always say, if someone was at home and they're reviewing the meeting minutes, would they understand what transpired at a meeting? Would they get a sense of what took place? Would they understand what you reviewed? And I call it, you know, the sort of four corners document, like you're looking at it and you're like, even though I wasn't there, I know what took place. But a transcript is not required. We know that minutes have to be approved within three meetings or 30 days, whichever is later. Some public bodies meet very often. Others might meet more sporadically. We know that that's the general timeframe for approval of your meeting minutes. And we know that their open meeting minutes will then be made publicly available. And executive session meeting minutes, if you have an executive session, can be kept confidential until the purpose of that confidentiality or the purpose of that executive session has been served. So that's a little bit of an overview. One thing that I always like to identify for member community members is subcommittees. This question comes up all the time. You know, there's a particular task force or working group that may want to be formed to advise your commission. And I always caution that no matter what it's called, even if it's called a working group or a task force or a subcommittee, there are potentially open meeting law considerations. And so you want to look in terms of how that subcommittee or group was formed. And, you know, if there is a group or subcommittee formed by your commission, then you would have to post and keep minutes in compliance with the open meeting law. One person does not constitute a subcommittee. And so, you know, if Tom says, I would like someone to look at this issue and report back, that would not be a subcommittee. But if there's a group of individuals that you vote to look into a particular matter within your jurisdiction, then a subcommittee would likely be triggered under the open meeting law. And that is something we're seeing come up a lot as people try to work through different business matters for their particular public body. So we talked a little bit about notice requirements, but I think it's always good to emphasize. Nearly all meetings must be posted not less than 40 weekday hours prior to the date of the meeting, so the weekends and holidays don't You cannot take those into account when you're posting your meeting. The meeting notice must list all of the topics to be discussed with specificity, including executive sessions. And we'll talk about that in a little bit more detail in a second. Regardless of whether a meeting was posted correctly, a meeting occurs if there's a quorum of the public body discussing matters within its jurisdiction. And we'll talk a lot about email tonight, but essentially, All of the members of the commission want to ensure that they're not, you know, constantly emailing about something within their jurisdiction that could then constitute a deliberation on something that should occur at a public meeting. I always like to call to identify some sort of tips to stay out of trouble or some items that we see come up quite often. If any of you are attending a meeting of another body or a social event, you want to create the appearance that you're discussing any city business. I can't tell you how many times I've received a call or you know, seeing an allegation of a complaint, that there's a social event or a community event. And I'm sure all of you are very involved in Medford, where there's people talking in the corner or people talking on a bench or at a particular event. And there's this, you know, thought that somehow it relates to commission business or a public body's business. So you really just want to be careful. Of course, everyone is allowed to participate in their community, talk to your other commission members, how, you know, how are your friends, how are your family, et cetera, but you really want to avoid creating the appearance that you're discussing city business on matters within your jurisdiction. If you're attending another meeting of a public body, if you go to a city council meeting or another particular meeting, again, you just want to avoid the notion that there's a deliberation or discussion on something that you are reviewing. that hasn't been posted, that it's not a meeting without a posting, so to speak. Of course, there are times where you will want to meet with other public bodies perhaps. And so the best practice would be just to post a joint meeting to be held at the same time and place. And certainly that would avoid any issue if members of the commission wanna discuss a particular matter. Email is a big thing. We're gonna talk about email in a little bit, You know, if you can avoid email on matters that are before the Commission, it's certainly a best practice.
[Unidentified]: Oh, there we go.
[Austin]: So email. Email is explicitly addressed in the Open Meeting Law. And what we know is that a quorum of the commission may not use emails to share ideas, beliefs, opinions, concerns, either as a group, I call it the reply all situation, or to one member who then forwards it to another member and then forwards it to another member. So you really wanna be aware of reply all to emails and also kind of caution your fellow members to not to not send emails on matters that should be discussed at a meeting. You really wanna limit use of email to scheduling purposes and try to avoid using email, whether personal or a city email account, to undertake city business based on your positions. You certainly wanna assume that an email may be forwarded to unintended recipients. They also would be, if they're sent in your capacity, As a commission member, they would be subject to the public records law. So just to consider that. And certainly you don't wanna ask for any other member to express their opinions, ideas, or feelings to other members as well. So best approach is to be very cautious about email and certainly limit use to scheduling purposes. I can meet on Tuesday, this time works for me. And maybe it's an email from, from one person to the other without a reply all situation. We've all gotten so used to using email and technology for so many things, it's second nature almost to just reply and what about this? So it's just something to be cautious about. The same rule would apply to social media. Certainly individuals have their own rights, you know, in your individual capacity to use social media. And we're not talking about any of that tonight. But what we are talking about is, again, if there's these serial communications or directing comments to another member, if something's pending before your commission. So that may be, you know, someone comments on a particular project or a particular matter and then on Twitter two other members respond and then two more respond and then you now have a quorum of your commission commenting on something that really should be discussed at an open meeting. So I just wanted to flag those as well for you. Conducting the meeting. This is something that I get a lot of questions about, and we talk about sunshine laws a lot and government transparency, but the open meeting law actually does not require public participation or public comment. What we do know is if there's a public hearing, public participation is required. What the open meeting law requires is that essentially the chair has the sole discretion as to whom they speak at a meeting and for how long. You know, we will talk a little bit about there was a recent decision from the Supreme Judicial Court, which is the highest state court in Massachusetts that talked a lot about public comment during public meetings. But what we know is if public comment is allowed, certainly we wouldn't want to make any restrictions based on someone's particular message or their comment. You know if everyone has three minutes to speak or five minutes to speak during a 15 minute public comment period that's one thing. But if one individual gets to speak for longer because of the content of his or her speech and the other person doesn't that could implicate constitutional considerations so. just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of that. But that is a question I get a lot. Most public bodies I work with have public comment on their agenda, but it is not required. And it may be that it's allowed for one meeting and not another meeting, depending on how much business you have to conduct. So whether or not to allow public participation is a policy decision. So it's something usually members will review and it has these implications. When will it occur? How long will it be? How long will each person be permitted to speak? And whether people will be permitted to speak more than once. You know, I recommend that if you're going to consider allowing public comment, that these content neutral, we call them, so it's not based on what a person's saying, these general policy considerations be thought about, you know, prior to allowing it, just so everyone's on the same page, both members and also members of the public, so it's clear if there is a public comment period. So we talked a little bit about constitutional principles for restricting public comment, but some some items to consider and certainly you'll have all of this for. Your meetings going forward, but you know avoid debate certainly Members would want to avoid responding to a comment. before you've had the opportunity to discuss it or if the matter is particularly controversial. That has open meeting law considerations because you can't comment on something that isn't on the agenda generally, unless it's truly unanticipated by the chair. You may wanna leave matters raised during public comment or public speak period, quote, unresolved. and place it on the agenda for an upcoming meeting when there's formal notice of the agenda item. And it allows everyone to have the time to prepare for the meeting and certainly allows other members of the public to participate if they choose as well. Meeting minutes. So meeting minutes are something I get a lot of questions about. It is, as you all know, a significant undertaking to do meeting minutes. To both draft them and to approve them and you want to make sure members of the public have, you know, or have a sense of what transpired at your meetings, this is what we talked about a little bit earlier, they have to include the date time the place of the meeting and the members present or absent. As I had mentioned, it has to include a detailed summary of the discussion of each topic to allow a person that's not present in the meeting to understand essentially what occurred. Pick it up. If you just moved to the city, you have never attended a meeting, you might want to attend the next one. You want to look at the meeting minutes and say, you know, what is the commission working on at this time? Oh, I'm really interested in that. I'm going to attend the next meeting. We know the meeting minutes have to have votes of the decisions made recording, um, the votes and actions taken and no secret ballots are permitted. I know that's not something you guys would do. Um, but I just always identify that as well. It should also include the meeting minutes should also include a list of documents. If you are presented a study, a memo, a report from a city employee or official. And it's something that you're physically using at your meeting, you're reviewing it, you're identifying it, you're discussing it amongst your fellow members. Certainly that should be referenced in the meeting minutes as well. So just really wanted to give you a snapshot in terms of the approval timeframe. Again, next three minute meetings or within 30 days, whichever is later. And this is something that also comes up you know, frequently minutes of open meetings are public records as of the minute they're created, regardless of whether they've been approved or not. And so draft meeting minutes are still subject to the public records law and would need to be provided with a draft stamp on top until the meeting minutes have actually been approved by the public body. Executive session, and I may ask Tom for feedback in terms of how many times or how often you all go into executive session.
[Tom Hamel]: In my three years, we've never done an executive session.
[Austin]: Okay, so we won't spend, thank you Tom, we won't spend a ton of time on this, but it's certainly something to know. It sounds like you don't have executive session meeting minutes, but as we talked about, there's the open session and then the executive session. I've included a slide here if you ever need to deal with executive session meeting minutes and it comes up, you'll have that information as well. Something else that comes up particularly if a commission is very busy or a public body has a lot of meetings or there's someone's unavailable for a meeting and they might not be able to attend. We know that the open meeting law says that a meeting cannot just be continued from one night to the next. unless it's again posted. So if tonight's meeting didn't have a quorum, there wasn't enough members present or someone was unavailable, you would have to essentially repost the meeting for 48 hours from tonight. So that's something I just wanted to just identify for you all as well. And if you're ever dealing with other legal requirements, we have the open meeting law posting, but there may be other advertising or posting requirements that are required by state law as well. Some other best practices to consider. We want to make sure that the location of the posting is accessible, that it's conspicuously visible to the public at all hours and during normal business hours as well as online. We want to not include any acronyms or abbreviations, similar to how I had mentioned with the meeting minutes. We want members of the public at home that may be interested in attending your meeting to be able to pick it up and really understand what is going to be discussed. This comes up a lot for grants or government agencies that may have very long names and they're shortened, and we all may know what they mean, but you know, it's best just to make sure you include more information for a member of the public to be able to ensure that he or she knows, you know, to attend a meeting if they're interested. And then the meeting notice also has to have the date and time of the posting. And if it's revised, you wanna include the original posting date as well as the revised posting date as well. So, We know that the meeting notice has to have a lot of specificity, you know, topics, and we'll talk about some general guidelines on that. One question that I get a lot was from what if a chair didn't reasonably anticipate a particular matter, it was something that, you know, hasn't come to the chair's attention and it needs to be handled right away. If a matter is truly not reasonably anticipated, no prior notice, then you can discuss it. The best practice would be to add it to the agenda as soon as you can and show the updated date and time, but the Attorney General's Division of Open Government that enforces the open meeting law does recommend that the best practice would be to put it on for a later meeting if that's possible and include it in the posting. So I just wanted to clarify what unanticipated means. The other question that comes up is emergencies. If you had a particular emergency, can that be discussed? And the answer is yes. But what we know from the determinations from the Attorney General's office is that doesn't include, you know, something just missed the agenda or we were, you know, it was supposed to be put on, but for whatever reason it wasn't put on, it's truly, you know, public safety, public health, weather related emergencies. Those are kind of the big items that we see in the emergency category. So what we know since the open meeting law was amended now many years ago to have the Attorney General's Office enforce it, is that placeholders, so to speak, are now a no-go. And so more detail is better than a little bit of detail. So we want to say, instead of new business or old business, really, what is that new business? Are there reports that are being reviewed? Is there an initiative being reviewed? Really just spell out for members of the public what is going to be discussed so that they can attend if they choose to. We see this on know, agendas all the time. I think the more detail that can be provided to the public, and the more specificity that can be included on your agenda, the better it is. So we talked a little bit about emergencies. If you do deal with any of these, you know, certainly, you'd want to comply with the law to the extent you can. Um, in the past couple of years, there have been, you know, some significant public health matters that require emergency attention or weather related matters. Um, you want to do what you can to post it up and really just focus on the emergency at hand. You still need to take minutes of the meeting and review them in and post another meeting to say, we're review. This was an emergency we had to meet, but in the future we're ratifying and looking at this again. You guys did a great job tonight. You want to make a public statement or notify members of the public that they're being recorded, you know, to ensure compliance with the mask wiretap statute. And if an individual decides to record on their own, they would need to inform the chair. So Tom will have to let you know, and that you would be required to make the reasonable announcement. If you were meeting in person or it was onerous for an individual to do it, I mean, technology is so small right now, but it used to be back in the day, the large VHS cameras, but the bottom line is no one can secretly record anyone else in Massachusetts. So it's a good idea just to make sure everyone understands that at the beginning of a meeting. Executive session, Tom was nice enough to clarify that you don't deal with this quite often, but certainly if you do, here's the process. So I just wanted to make sure all of you have that information. We know that you're gonna convene an open session, you're going to state the purpose of an executive session, and maybe someone's privacy interests, for example, or other matters, and there's a roll call vote requirement for that. So if you ever need it, that process is right there for everyone. Some additional executive session information. If you are going into an executive session, then you do need to kind of clarify why you're doing it. And again, if you have specific questions or if you ever have to deal with this, feel free to have Francis or any of you can reach out to me directly on that. That's fine. So I've included here, again, not to belabor the enforcement piece of this, but just so you know, if you ever see it, what the complaint process is. Essentially, if a member of the public feels as if there has been a violation of the open meeting law, this is the complaint process that has to be filed within 30 days of the alleged violation, and then it requires review by the commission and a response. I will say, you know, in my experience doing this work for 17, almost 17 years, there are very, very extreme and limited circumstances where fines have been issued. So I don't want anyone to worry about that per se, but certainly something to be cognizant of and remember compliance with the open meeting law. These are some recent notable court decisions that I like to include the Baron case that I had just mentioned that was a very recent case. Um, it was just decided by the, the SJC, the highest court in Massachusetts this spring, um, or early spring 2023. And essentially I just wanted to provide a summary for everyone. And that, that dealt with really the public comment requirements that we talked about earlier. Um, essentially, you know, in summary, while the open meeting law doesn't require a public comment period, then you do wanna ensure that if you do have a public comment period that you're meeting the constitutional requirements and not making content-based restrictions for individual speech. I've included a older case involving the Natick School Committee that again dealt with public comment during public meetings. And that case held that public comment policies and practices must ensure that restrictions are again narrowly tailored and really content, not content-based, just time of everyone had the same amount of time or could speak one time per meeting. The Swansea case involved a sufficiency of meeting notices, so I've included that. And the Boulder case probably isn't applicable to your commission, but certainly wanted to make sure you had all that information as well. So the current state of the open meeting law, we get questions on this a lot. The pandemic error changes are still in place until 2025. That was signed into law by Governor Healey on March 29th, 2023. So we know that the remote option for all public bodies is available as a matter of law until March 31st, 2025. You know, essentially, instead of holding meetings at an accessible public place, then there can be adequate alternative means, such as Zoom, like we're on tonight, of public access. We also know that public body members entirely may participate remotely. Meetings do not need to be held remotely. Like I said, many, many public bodies are still meeting entirely remotely. And certainly you're all aware that outside of coven 19 related changes commissions on disabilities may decide by majority of vote to meet remotely as well, and that the mayor's authority is not required to do that, even outside of the pandemic or change. So the one thing I just wanted to, you all seem very, very Zoom savvy, and I think we all probably are pretty tech savvy at this point, but we do need to make sure that there is what we call real-time access. And so if there is a technical problem and we've all been there, that the live stream crashes or a meeting has to be paused, you would wanna take a break to try to fix the tech issue essentially, but continuing a meeting and posting a recording doesn't cure a violation. And so you really wanna make sure members of the public that are at home can certainly access the meeting in an accessible manner to allow them to follow along in real time. Just a little checklist I provided for all the members this evening. If we are meeting remotely like we are tonight, the recording, as you all stated at the beginning, votes would be taken by a roll call vote and meeting members should introduce themselves at the start of a meeting. To the extent you can, camera should also be on. If your device doesn't have a camera, then that's fine. And it doesn't seem like you have to, you deal with executive session meeting minutes often. But if you did, you would want to make sure that members of the, there's a statement that no other person is able to hear you or hear your discussion at the remote location. And that is because executive sessions generally involve confidential information. Hybrid meetings. Tom, do you meet primarily solely remote at this point? Are you hybrid at all?
[Tom Hamel]: Except for one meeting, we've been mostly remote.
[Austin]: So if you do have hybrid meetings, I just wanted to give you some information on that. You can meet in person, but require members of the public to watch a live stream. Some members may be at home, some members may be in person. And again, the big issue that I see come up the most on this is if that live access stops for members of the public at home. So you just wanna be careful not to deliberate if there are tech issues. And if the tech issue is resolved, then certainly you can continue the meeting through the chair at that time. Meetings may be held in person if you choose, but again, no requirement to do so. If there is a meeting open to the public, then there has to be sufficient room for all of the public to attend. And certainly, you know, If there's a hybrid meeting, that should not be an issue. Or if you're meeting solely remote, it shouldn't be an issue. If you had a meeting where you had a large amount of people participating, you wanna make sure there's no restriction on the number of people that can sign into the Zoom. I've seen that come up on particular matters. So just check that as well. And the Attorney General's office has also issued guidance stating that meetings can be held in a location that requires a mask if that's necessary for any members or any of the members of the public that would need that. So I think that's about it. I just wanted to leave time for some specific overview type questions. And then if there's anything else after our session this evening, certainly as I had mentioned, I'm happy to work with Francis to make sure all those questions are answered. But I appreciate all of your time tonight. I know it's a lot of content, but I tried to kind of focus on the highlights, so to speak.
[Frances Nwajei]: Wow, Janelle, thank you, thank you so much. Every time I see one of these presentations, I feel like, oh my gosh, there's something else that I've missed. Wait, have we done, have we done that? So I, you know, I'm really excited because this time I know that we'll get the slides, which we, I feel like as the commission, we all sort of like help each other stay on track because it can be difficult to remember I think, for me, it's the email, you know, that I just want to make sure that people are clear about. And my other question is, you know, when when you don't have quorum, can you hold a meeting? Because
[Austin]: So I get the first one, I'll go in reverse order. The second one, thank you, Francis. Those are good questions. If there's no quorum, then no, right? Because the commission has to meet when it has a quorum and take action as a public body as a quorum. So you'd wanna continue that meeting and essentially repost it if you don't have a quorum. The email, I mean, again, we all rely on technology and email so, so much, and it does make lives easier in so many ways. Email should really be used for scheduling. The classic example I use is if a member wants to put a particular item on an agenda. I wanna talk about this report. I wanna talk about this particular community matter. what they should do is really just email either yourself, Francis, or Tom and say, this is something I would like to review at the meeting on, you know, our next meeting in June. Thank you. Because the risk is always, if it goes to the entire public body, it's everyone, we're all nice people. We all want to be helpful. There's a natural instinct for someone to reply to say, And i'm not saying any of you have done this, but this is you know what comes up from time to time, I think that's a great idea, or I talked to this person and they they thought it was a good idea let's prioritize X, and then we can prioritize why. Should we bring this person into the meeting? Or do you think this community member might have some additional feedback or information that might be helpful to the commission? It all comes from an entirely good place, right? But the issue is all of that under the open meeting law should be happening at an open meeting. And so the best practice would be, again, to email yourself or to email Tom to say, can we put this on the agenda for June? I think that Janelle Austin might have something to add, or this report might be something that may be of interest. It would probably be easier for a staff, you know, for Francis instead of a board member to do it, but information can be shared in advance of the meeting. It just can't be commented on, right? And so no expression of beliefs, opinions. So sometimes I will see chairs or liaison right on the bottom of an email, please see materials for June, 2023 meeting. Here's the agenda, you know, for your information, please do not discuss in advance of the meeting or for discussion only. And some public bodies I work with even go so far as to say, please do not reply all. Like, please remember the open, because it's like, you know, everyone sees the email or they'll see a text message and they'll just reply. And so it can just be as simple as, you know, please see the materials. Please remember the open meeting lot. Please do not reply. We'll discuss it at our next meeting. And that is just a natural reminder for everyone to say this is something we'll talk about in a public meeting when we meet next. You know, the other question is, I get a lot, is well, can we, you know, collaborate on meeting minutes? Can we If someone sends a Google Drive to meeting minutes, can we all put our changes in in advance? And we know that the attorney general's office has said no, because everyone's sharing their ideas or beliefs on what happened at that meeting outside of the meeting. So that's another question that technology has put a wrinkle in things, so to speak. But that's really what I think is the best practice on email if that's possible.
[Frances Nwajei]: Thank you so much, Janelle.
[Austin]: Thank you, Frances. Did you have a question, Tom?
[Tom Hamel]: I do. Thank you, Janelle. Thank you for sharing all this information. It's a lot of good information, I think new information for us. And Frances, thank you for having Janelle come. I think this is something you've been asking for. So I think it provides some clarity in how we interact. I think my, excuse me, my question is how, so as an example, we are working on planning an event for the fall. And based on what you've said, it feels like our options are limited and I'm not sure what our options are other than our monthly meeting. to do planning for that event due to limiting interactions outside of the meeting. So I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on that. It's kind of an example of how we communicate.
[Austin]: Sure. So I think when people plan events, it may be that the public, the commission decides who is going to you know, who is going to look at a particular matter. So someone may be in charge of one aspect of the event, someone else may be in charge of another aspect of the event, and everyone, you know, does their own work, so to speak, and then reports back at the monthly meeting. I've seen that. You know, I think it is often that that is how it will work, and then updates are provided by each individual member at the meeting.
[Tom Hamel]: So individually, we can do things and then report back. Is that something that they can share with me, the chair, prior to the meeting or we wait till the meeting?
[Austin]: You can, as long as it's not a quorum, so if it's one member directly to you, Tom, that wouldn't be a quorum deliberating outside of the meeting, as long as you then don't share it with another person who then shares it with another person who then shares it with another person. So it does take, you know, it does take a lot of discipline from the chair, so to speak, to not, deliberate serially, they say, right? One person to one person to another person. Because, you know, you'll have situations where then people come to a meeting and they're like, do you remember when the four of us were talking about this or the five of us? And a member of the public's like, what? So I think that's really the best practice.
[Unidentified]: Thank you.
[Austin]: Thank you, Tom. Marsha, did you have a question?
[Marcia Kirssen]: A little bit more. My concern is what Tom is asking about. Is there any way to have more than one member working on an issue, communicating about it between meetings? Planning this event is a big thing. And if each person works on a part of it, okay but it doesn't really work that way because there's too much for one person to do in a given area. So you can't logically divide the area. So is there a way that that can be handled?
[Austin]: So certainly the work can be divided up particularly for a larger event that wouldn't cause any open meeting law issues. It's really when there's communication between what each person's doing outside of a meeting. Like I call it the check-in, right? So if you're working on something, Marsha, and Joe's working on something, Linda's working on something, Tom's working on something, that's fine. As members, you can all be working on any tasks that have been divided up at a public meeting. And maybe, you know, everyone's doing a particular thing. That's fine. And if you want to communicate back to Tom, this is how this is going, that's fine. But again, these check-in type of meetings or statuses, so to speak, of this event is coming together great, you know, this vendor set up, you know, the space is reserved. you know, I'm working on this, I expect to get an answer back on such and such a date, and you want to report that back to all of your fellow members, that should happen in an open meeting that's listed on the agenda that says, you know, event, the name of the event, planning, and discussion, right? It doesn't have to be very long. It just has to really, because maybe a member of the public wants to volunteer, or they want to help out, or they're really just interested in following the progress, So everyone can do things on their own. You just, I mean, the takeaway is really public business can't be conducted outside of an open meeting because you're a member of a public body. So that's really the big takeaway, but I have no issue with, you know, everyone doing, no one is expected to do everything. So everyone kind of dividing up the work and reporting that, that's fine. Good question, Marsha.
[Marcia Kirssen]: I just, frankly, I'll comment, it makes it incredibly difficult to organize anything. And unnecessary, it doesn't seem necessary to me. I don't think that anyone in the public cares what specific organization I contact to get a case at this event, for example, which is something I'm trying.
[Austin]: Right, and it doesn't, you wouldn't have to come back you know, at the meeting, go through each and every step you did. I don't think that's required at all. It would be, you know, if Tom simply said, you know, Marcia, can you update me on X, Y, and Z? And you said, yes, I've been working on this. You know, here's where things are at. That's all that really would have to happen. And then all your fellow members are aware of what you've been working on. It just can't be, and I'm not saying this is what would happen, It can't be picking up the phone and calling multiple people and reporting what happened. That has to be a public meeting.
[Marcia Kirssen]: Could the co-chair help the chair? Sorry, Linda. It doesn't have to be you. I'd like to know if that's possible.
[Austin]: A co-chair, I mean, the best practice is that it should happen, you know, like I said, at a public meeting. But yes, tasks can be divided up. And certainly, as long as there's not a deliberation of a quorum of members, either at the same time or serially, then the open meeting law wouldn't be implicated. And if there's other specific questions as you guys continue to plan the event, maybe Francis or Tom could let me know.
[Tom Hamel]: I think that's a good idea. Thank you, Jim. Linda, is there time for one more question for Linda? And then we can move on to the next item.
[Frances Nwajei]: Oh, yes. Sorry, Linda. We didn't see your hands just snuck up there.
[Smith]: That's OK. Mine's kind of a continuation of the of the questions that have been asked. So if there was something that needed to be, you said like city business can't be conducted outside of an open meeting. So the situation I'm thinking of is like my task would need to be done in conjunction with another person. And so would we need to, is there a way to have an open meeting outside of our normal open meeting? Like could we call an open meeting to work on something together? let's say I'm working on an email communication that's going out to the general public, but I need information from Tom, like we need to look at it together. So then would we say, hey, Francis, Tom and I want to meet, can we schedule an open meeting and put it on the calendar, yada, yada, yada? Is that what we would do?
[Austin]: That would be absolutely fine. Yep. And so it doesn't, that would be a working group essentially, right? Or it's sort of a subcommittee sounds so formal, but I think it would be a working group and that would be fine. And honestly, there could be more than two members that are in this wording. And if the commission decides we really want, you know, these individuals to work on this particular matter closely together, bless you. It would be a situation where, you know, you could absolutely do that. You could have a Zoom meeting, you could post it, and you can meet outside of the monthly meetings. That would not be an issue at all, Linda. Good question. Cool. Thanks.
[Tom Hamel]: Thank you, Janelle. I really appreciate taking this time with us. It's been very helpful and for sending along the information to Frances.
[Austin]: I will send that along to her tomorrow. And I appreciate all of your time tonight and excellent questions.
[Frances Nwajei]: You're welcome. I do have a commissioner from one of the other commissions that is here. And before you go, Janelle, I just want to make sure that this commissioner does not have a question to ask at this time.
[MCM00001269_SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, Francis. I'm Diane McDonald. Actually, all of the questions were asked by the other commissioners on this meeting. So thorough, so helpful, and it's just given me a lot of clarity as a newer member of the Human Rights Commission. So thank you.
[Austin]: Great. The other thing before I close and I appreciate that Diane, I just wanted to also say and I'll, I'll include it Francis when I send over the PowerPoint deck. The Attorney General's Division of Open Government, who oversees the open meeting law. has really great frequently asked questions on particular issues also has a very handy open meeting long guy that's online. That is something that that is really just a great idea to look at from time to time. and to really ensure they do trainings and videos as well, but I'll include the link there. I mean, certainly I'm always available to answer anyone's questions, but it's always helpful to see if there's a particular issue that you have a question about. It just has a lot of good resources up on their website as well. But I appreciate everyone's time tonight and I'll send those materials over to Francis and thank you all for your time. Thank you so much. Thank you for organizing. Thank you. Bye, Tom.
[Tom Hamel]: Bye.
[Austin]: Thank you.
[Unidentified]: All right, Tom, I think it's back over to you, right?
[Tom Hamel]: Yes, so our next item. Well, actually, at the beginning I meant to say, and this goes along with what Janelle was just talking about, but We started this last meeting, but just in terms of participating, if you do have something you want to say, just click the raise hand button, and we will want to make sure that becomes part of our habit. So I just want to reinforce that. Yes, Frances.
[Frances Nwajei]: I just forgot, Yvette had joined us during Janelle's presentation. So Yvette might want to announce her presence for the recording.
[Unidentified]: Who's that? Yeah. Yvette Wilkes. Thank you, Yvette.
[Tom Hamel]: Thanks, Yvette.
[Unidentified]: Thank you.
[Tom Hamel]: And Diane, are you planning to join us for the rest of the meeting or just for that?
[MCM00001269_SPEAKER_04]: I would love to observe if you all don't mind. The Human Rights Commission is very lean, so I'm just absorbing and learning some best practices from your very well-seated membership on your commission. So if that's OK. Of course. All right, thank you.
[Tom Hamel]: All right, so our next item is old business, and it's some planning for the Disability Product Resource Fair. I'm going to share our spreadsheet that we looked up, but I think maybe I can share. Nope. Frances, can you? Thank you. She's reading my mind. All right. All right, fantastic. So I wanted to share the spreadsheet that we talked about last month. And there's a few updates that I've put on here. And I'm also going to ask a few of you to provide updates on how things are going. So Gabby, who is working on the location and the date has gotten back to us with information about having it at the Brooks School. October 7th is the date that is available. And I think we wanted to put it out there to see if there were any concerns about doing the fair on October 7th.
[Smith]: Unfortunately, I won't be available that weekend, but I'm more than happy to help with any sort of prep up until that date.
[Unidentified]: Okay.
[Tom Hamel]: Anybody else? I can't see you all on my screen.
[Evangelista]: Is that the holiday week?
[Tom Hamel]: It is. Hello? Yes, it is the holiday weekend.
[Unidentified]: Okay, thank you.
[Evangelista]: It's Saturday.
[Unidentified]: Yes, Saturday, October 7. Go ahead, Joe.
[MCM00001818_SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I volunteered, and I'd like to also add to that list. I got a pickup truck in case somebody needs chairs, tables, or any large objects moved. So I'll volunteer the use of my pickup truck if you need anything moved around. Awesome.
[Tom Hamel]: So it sounds like you're around on October 7th also.
[MCM00001818_SPEAKER_06]: Yep, I will be around.
[Tom Hamel]: All right, so do we is this I don't know Francis, this is something that we need to take a vote on.
[Frances Nwajei]: I don't think it's so much taking a vote on, I think it just needs to be decided that that's the date and the time so that, you know, as commissioners are working on their pieces, they know what they're working towards. We might want to make sure that folks are aware that it is an accessible space, there are bus routes, there's plenty of parking, and there's also a playground. and the tables at that location actually fold up and roll away. So in the event that we need more surface area than we need the table seating area, it can accommodate that as well.
[Tom Hamel]: That's right. There's also the ability to show a film. That's right.
[Frances Nwajei]: The projector. So I, Tom, what I'd like to suggest where it says the task, I would like to suggest that we change it to say that it's the seventh and it's been secured. So it doesn't look where it says Gabby's name. Yeah. Yeah. So it doesn't look like it's still being worked on. Yeah. For the vendors, could we add Co-op for Human Services over to the right of the document?
[Tom Hamel]: Which vendor?
[Frances Nwajei]: Co-op for Human Services, they actually have six residential homes in the city of Medford.
[Tom Hamel]: Yes, that was going to be one of my questions. I put together this list based on notes. I don't know if there are additional vendors that we want to add, like Francis did. And then additionally, I would love to have volunteers to contact each of these places.
[Unidentified]: Could we add EPIC as well to this, A-P-I-C? They're part of Epic Warriors.
[Tom Hamel]: All right, so I'm going to put my name in for a couple of places that I know.
[Unidentified]: Pick me for Epic and for Co-op for Human Services.
[Frances Nwajei]: the school, Medford Public Schools, that should probably be Susan, Sue B., and myself.
[Tom Hamel]: Susan?
[Frances Nwajei]: No, not Susie, Susan Bibbins, and myself, because I'm assuming that that's, you know, part of our ADA group. Boston Center for Independent Living just came through from Yvette. In fact, do you want to be the contact for them?
[Unidentified]: Do you want to be the one to reach out? I can do Medford Recreation. Marcia?
[Marcia Kirssen]: I'm committed. I was scared. I thought I was supposed to do that whole thing. Don't do that to me. I will contact. I am in process of trying to contact the elderly services and Melrose Lakefield Hospital.
[Unidentified]: Thank you.
[Tom Hamel]: If there's any, oh, and I'm going to put Gabby in for Carroll Center. I believe that's where, I think that's, is that where she works?
[Frances Nwajei]: I believe Gabby's for the Carroll Center and maybe Perkins.
[Tom Hamel]: Yeah.
[Frances Nwajei]: I'm not sure. I think that just, I just missed a, I don't know, my screen looks funny.
[Evangelista]: I mentioned the Perkins school. If Gabby's already there, that's fine, but you can put me as a backup.
[Unidentified]: Okay. Thank you.
[Evangelista]: Or the Perkins school, it doesn't matter. It's okay. We'll just get it done.
[Tom Hamel]: I got it, yep. Okay. I can also contact CPAC.
[Unidentified]: I know the folks there.
[Evangelista]: I was going to say, you can put me next to the library, but I do have a question. Oh, you were going to say that, Frances?
[Frances Nwajei]: I was going to say that. only because i'm going to be talking to them quite a bit over about different things, I was kind of like cheating killing you know getting two things done at once so.
[Evangelista]: Well, if you can take it it's Okay, but I do want to know, are we going to have like a one cheater so that way we provide all the exact same details. Because people may ask, how many people do you expect? It would be nice if we all gave the same response.
[Frances Nwajei]: I can certainly work with Tom and put something together that's very, very brief. I feel like this is the first one. for the commission, so it's really to help the commission, help get the commission known, but also at the same time, you know, to show how many people with disabilities and organizations with disabilities live in and around Medford and some of the wonderful things that can be done.
[Evangelista]: So us all saying that same thing would be awesome. What's the recording.
[Tom Hamel]: Go ahead.
[Smith]: Yeah, that the one cheater would also be helpful for me and community and drafting up the email, and that way I can, it's not that I necessarily have to like take all the information, even though it's for a different purpose I can, it'll help me use similar language for the public.
[Tom Hamel]: you know, posting it on social media, we wanna have a one-sheeter for that too.
[Evangelista]: So that'll be perfect. Whatever that one-sheeter is, it provides the details and then that's great.
[Tom Hamel]: Awesome. Okay. All right. So Marcia emailed me with this great photography project idea. Marcia, do you wanna share a little, oh, Francis, go ahead.
[Frances Nwajei]: Anybody taking the Walnut Street Center in Triangle? I'm sorry, it's just the last two on the list.
[Evangelista]: I can take them.
[Unidentified]: Thank you, Yvette.
[Tom Hamel]: All right. So Marcia, you want to give a short synopsis of your idea? I know I'm kind of putting you on the spot because we didn't talk about it beforehand.
[Marcia Kirssen]: It's OK. I thought I'm hoping that someone that hasn't heard it will be willing to work on it because I think it's a more than one person thing, or at least input from people maybe at this meeting. I happen to know a young man for quite a while who is taking a photography class. He's a student at MIT. And he came to my house because he wanted to used me as a model for his class. And I said to him, gee, you could take a picture of me doing the different things with my mobility aid. And he said, yeah, I could do that. I could do more. And I had told him about the fair too. So he offered to do photographs of people with disabilities with different disabilities and have a table at the fair, it's available this summer. So what I can't do by myself is find, think of the different disabilities to be included and find all these people. Possibly one or more of these organizations might suggest But it's just, when I thought about it, it's a bigger task, bigger than one person's task.
[Tom Hamel]: Thank you, Marsha. Yvette?
[Evangelista]: Yes. Regarding security on that, Marsha, I think it's great. But I would want to know, would the commission on the pictures Would we be able to dictate where they're going to be posted and how they would be shared? Are we able to share it with the individuals that do get their pictures taken? Yes. I am offering to help on things because I can't be there that weekend. I won't be available at all, so I'm trying to help before the weekend, the event. Marcia, based on the open policy laws or however we can do that, I can help have that conversation or create a working group to support what you're talking about.
[Marcia Kirssen]: Thank you. I think school is over. We can have an open meeting, I guess, or we can.
[Tom Hamel]: Francis.
[Frances Nwajei]: So I just want to make sure that we're very careful because there's going to be a difference between, you know, folks that are independent, live independently, can make the choice about whether or not they want to be photographed, right? and maybe people who are in a living situation through an agency. So I'm not quite clear where we're going. I know I'm excited, but I've learned through the years that when I get excited, I've got to slow down and pause. I, I feel you know if I hear what you're saying right because there's also the D.I. piece I don't want in five years time these pictures of people go off and they're used for something marvellous, but now there are no royalties for the people that were featured in the pictures. So I would actually like to be a part of that conversation and actually ask those more technical pieces before we move forward.
[Marcia Kirssen]: Could you send me a list of questions and I'll ask and then send you an answer? Is that possible?
[Frances Nwajei]: We could do that, but I would actually prefer to have that direct conversation and communication, because there are many nuanced situations. I don't think he's not a professional photographer. No, no, no, it's not that, but if we, but Marsha, if we have individuals that live in group residences, right, that are under guardianship, we're looking at permission being attained and signed they might, they're a part of this community and they might want to be a part of the, yeah. So that's why I said that there are some, there is some nuanced situations that I'd love to just like get cleared up before we move forward.
[Marcia Kirssen]: Okay, I was not thinking of doing something that complicated initially. In other words, it would be people, connections to commissioners. So just connections to the commission. Right, because I don't know a lot of people at this point that have disabilities.
[Unidentified]: But we have a mailing list, for example.
[Evangelista]: Well, true, but because these people are going to come to our recommendations, they're trusting us. So we have to do our due diligence to really speak to this individual to ensure the safety of anybody that we even let him have access to. I mean, they're like our own, right? So that's why the conversation, he may not even be thinking about this himself. He may be thinking about it's a great thing, but we may The small thing may be we provide him with the SD card and we tell him, you only use this card and we want it back. There could be a lot of little things that can be done. I think as Frances being our primary contact, she understands the safety that we have to put in place, especially if we're going to expose anybody to individuals. That's the way I feel because they trust us. Thank you.
[Tom Hamel]: And I've written down in our notes here that we probably would need to have some type of signed agreements either with the photographer and or the participants. So that's maybe what you're thinking.
[Marcia Kirssen]: Yes. I didn't think of this because I trust him implicitly. And as I said, I've known him for quite a while. And so I doubt that he'll be an issue, but I think maybe we need to protect ourselves. I'm not disagreeing. I'm just trying to reassure people if they want to proceed with it, that I doubt that he will present a problem. I understand your issue too, Frances. I wasn't thinking of going there. But I mean, I don't know. You know, the question is how big should this project get or should we do it at all?
[Frances Nwajei]: Well, we might, you know, I, Marsha, I really think it's a lovely idea. The other, the other thing, and this is just a suggestion and we don't have to do it this way, is to, you know, do we, do we say like our target is not necessarily for the resource fair, but the, you know, we put out a bullet, the Commission on Persons with Disabilities is looking for people who identify as having a disability and are interested in having their photos taken as they're engaged in everyday life, right? So now we have put that out there and it allows for people to come to us if they're interested. Unfortunately, it does eliminate a specific group of folks that do have a disability. And in this situation, I'm talking about folks that live in, let's say group residences, folks that might be under guardianship. I mean, there are so many different ways that we could go with this. And when I say put the bullet out there, I'm talking about like, you know, using the city channels, like doing an all call. I'm doing the social media and stuff like that. Because it is a lovely idea and it's so important.
[Tom Hamel]: I just want to recognize that we only have about five minutes left in our meeting time. And we've covered a lot, covered a lot today. So let's, I think we should probably move on to the rest of our agenda. So I will, again, I will update this and I can share it with everybody. All right. So Francis, you had a couple of updates and then we have a few announcements.
[Frances Nwajei]: Yes, I'm going to speak really quickly. I was, I believe at the last meeting I had mentioned that someone from Co-op for Human Services had reached out to me about accessible activities for some of the individuals that reside in the homes around Medford. So I did make mention during my meeting with them about our upcoming And I asked if they would, you know, just think about it and see if they would be interested in presenting on their organization so that's that very quickly. I also wanted to announce one commissioner. retirement, I received an email from Marsha, whose time as a commissioner is nearing the end. And Marsha, Commissioner Kirsten, will not be renewing. So I wanted to make sure that you guys knew that prior to the next meeting, which is next month. We, we enjoyed this time and this additional one month time. I can't thank Marsha enough for, you know, her knowledge and view and so many, so many, so many things and just her lens in experience in just paranoid view of Disability. So this is just the beginning of the thank yous, Marsha. We've got, I don't know what, 30 something more days to do. You'll make me cry. Bring the tissues.
[Tom Hamel]: Bring the tissues.
[Frances Nwajei]: Tom says bring the tissues.
[Tom Hamel]: We're going to miss you. That's what I'll say.
[Marcia Kirssen]: We're going to miss you. I am compelled to do it for a number of personal reasons. And I love public service. And I might be going to the city council on my own and saying, I may not be able to shut up. I will not inform you.
[Tom Hamel]: All right. So the final is a couple of announcements. So there, Francis, do you want me to just read them off?
[Frances Nwajei]: Yeah, Pride flag raising Thursday, June 1st at 4pm here at City Hall. I have been informed that the temperatures are going to be in the 90s. So I'm going to make sure that the seating is under some tent and make sure that there's like water and stuff for people to drink. I have no idea what is happening with the weather. If anybody does, please let me know so I can give you a message to tell the person in charge of the weather. And we also have the Juneteenth flag raising event, which is also on a Thursday. It will be on Thursday, June 15 here at City Hall as well. As you know, Juneteenth falls in the midst of Pride Month, so the Juneteenth flag will go up on Thursday. and it will come down on Tuesday, June 20th, because believe it or not, Friday's a holiday in the city of Medford. I can't remember the, I think it's evacuation day. And then you have the Monday holiday, that's Juneteenth. So it will be nice because the flag will fly for an extended period of time. And that is the life.
[Tom Hamel]: Two more announcements. So next Wednesday, WOC Medford has put together an event on, let's see, May 31st at 5 p.m. And we have been invited to join for a walk and talk with Senator Jalen and Representative Garbally, meeting at the community gardens, and DCR, Department of Conservation and Recreation, a representative from them, there will be joining us and a great part of the conversation I think will apply to accessibility. So I'm going to be there. If you are planning to go, let me know and we can meet up. And then one other announcement that I received today, and actually I'll just drop the link in the chat, the the federal government is looking for feedback on section 504, the HUD's 504 regulations and non-discrimination on the basis of disability. And so they're looking for public comment and that is ending July 24th. So there's two months to provide that comment.
[Frances Nwajei]: Could you just make sure that that link is on our minutes?
[Tom Hamel]: Yes. Thank you. Yeah. Yes. And I will. I know Gabby started taking the minutes. I've been taking them since she had to depart. So we'll put that together. All right. Any other announcements? All right, thank you, everybody. Oh, we have to vote, or I guess, well, can we vote?
[Smith]: I make a motion to adjourn. We were doing so well. I got you covered. I got you covered. I'll make a motion to adjourn.
[Frances Nwajei]: You, you can't I don't think you don't talk to be honest with you, I don't think the chair can motion in, I don't know, there's only there's only four of us left. That will be the second.
[Tom Hamel]: All right. All right.
[Frances Nwajei]: I'm going to stop the recording now.
[Tom Hamel]: Yes. Have a good night, everyone.
[Smith]: Have a good night. Bye.
[Tom Hamel]: Recording stopped. Bye, everyone. Thank you all so much. Bye bye.