[Ron Giovino]: Okay, good evening. So we've got a couple, we're still waiting for a couple of members, but Mari's on his way, and Nova and Eunice. Did you forward that to Gene as well?
[Eunice Browne]: Yeah, I'm just, I had to look for it, so. All right, I just sent it over to them, so you should be jumping on in a couple minutes.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay, sounds good. OK, Jean's on.
[Eunice Browne]: OK.
[Ron Giovino]: Does she need access for?
[Eunice Browne]: Yeah, she probably needs to be. She needs audio access. Hello. I have audio.
[Ron Giovino]: Hi, Jean. How are you?
[Eunice Browne]: We're there.
[Ron Giovino]: No problem. We're just getting started.
[Eunice Browne]: And Mario will be here in a minute.
[Milva McDonald]: He needed the link. We have a quorum, so we can do the minutes.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah. OK, let's start with the minutes. Everybody get a chance to look at the minutes.
[Jean Zotter]: Move approval.
[Ron Giovino]: Move for approval, second? Second. All in favor?
[Ron Giovino]: All right, so I know you've gotten my email. I assume you got my email talking about Milva's schedule change. So I really want to make sure that we stick to, you know, getting to like what I think is the most important thing that we need to have done, which is kind of hashing this out while Milva's here, going through the pros and the cons, coming up with a consensus if we can, And then, uh, you know, we work on your presentation pieces, which I think, um, next week when we do the presentation, you know, we don't need to have a complete and perfect presentation. I think that you both can talk to, um. what is in your presentation, you can show your tables. And I think it's enough for the committee of the whole to have, you know, to gather information. I honestly think that once we start the discussion with them, I hope it doesn't go too long, but I do think they'll have a lot of questions about the information we gathered or did not gather. And so it'd be an interesting conversation, but tonight I wanted to start, if it's okay with everybody, with, The pros and cons that I had sent you, Milva has done an edit to it. I appreciate that. Taking out some of the... language, which I agree with. So I want to start as narrow as we can. Just so you know, when I wrote these up the first time, I wanted to make sure that a couple of things, that it represented all the pros and cons that we've heard about and have validated. I also know that in the pros and cons that were added into this, um, I took out all the names of the people who said something. Cause to me, I think that putting their name there only devalues everybody else's survey because it's, there's not one survey more important than the other. Some people may have experiences and we will call on those experiences, but, um, a con is a con and a pro is a pro. So, um, I wanted to, um, Milva, do you want to share your sheet? Or do you want me to share my sheet?
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, do you have it handy?
[Ron Giovino]: I do. Do I have the power to share?
[Eunice Browne]: Yes.
[Ron Giovino]: OK.
[Eunice Browne]: Is there any way to put it up against the original set?
[Ron Giovino]: You won't be able to see it. But I'll show you that. I didn't take any. There was none taken out. It was only that she edited them. And if we want to, I'll read to you what the original was there. No problem. Let me. Okay, share screen pros and cons. Okay. Can everybody see that?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay, so let's. So you can see that also Milva has comments on the side there. So I don't know any other way of doing this other than to just read through them and just everybody agree that that's what we all intended were those pros and cons from the original list. And again, I have the other list right in front of me. So if you want to know what the original pros and cons were, I can read that to you as well.
[Jean Zotter]: Ron?
[Ron Giovino]: Yes.
[Jean Zotter]: Um, can you, can you make, it's a little, can we see them all?
[Ron Giovino]: Can you, um, I don't know how I can do that.
[Jean Zotter]: You take off the comments. It seemed like it was bigger at the bottom. You see the percentage, the zoom, make it a little smaller than we can see.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay.
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah. Um, okay. I was like a little worried that we had more cons and pros.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Jean Zotter]: And I was wondering if we should try to make them a little more equal.
[Ron Giovino]: We may be able to. You know, the thing with the pros versus cons are that it's just, it's not a pro versus a con here. They don't match up. But I understand what you're saying. And I guess the recommendation will identify which way we go. But there may be one here that we may want to combine or eliminate when we go through it. So let's just... So, and again, this is a, not your opinion, it is a validated opinion that some people have. So I think we all know, you know, I think we, you know, if we said one of the pros is- That's good. Is that better?
[Eunice Browne]: Yeah. Whatever you did a minute ago was even better, was even bigger.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, I just didn't want to lose the bottom there.
[Milva McDonald]: That's good.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. All right, so number one under the pros is it guarantees at least one councilor from each ward. That's a fact. And that is a positive, I think, if one of our goals is diversity and inclusion of the entire city. Does anybody have a comment on that one? It's kind of basic 101 of the pros. Okay, so I'll just go right down all the pros first. Fewer candidates on the ballot allows voters to become better educated and informed about their choices. So if you want to know what it originally said.
[Milva McDonald]: I think I added that one in there.
[Eunice Browne]: How does that, I'm confused though about that. So right now we have 12 people running for city council currently. I mean, we've had, to trigger a primary or a preliminary, you need 15 or more. So, I mean, in the general election you could have up to 14. Yep. But in a prelim, you can have 25. Right. Or whatever. So we get down to the general and you can have 14 people. So we have 12 now. How do you What do you mean by fewer candidates on the ballot?
[Milva McDonald]: Because when you, if in a ward system, you would only be voting for four people as opposed to seven right now, seven.
[Eunice Browne]: Oh, okay, I see what you mean. So if you had, if we did the hybrid with, let's say eight plus five, so that would be 13. Then you'd have six that you were voting for. So you would be researching and looking Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: And I actually, somebody, you know, in our comment stream in from, in our, we've been trying to get public comment and this was actually one of the comments by a member of the public. That's why, because it was, it's not, it's, it didn't come from me.
[Ron Giovino]: But you'll notice it's also listed as a con too. Mari, you had your hand up as, what did you, do you want to unmute?
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry.
[Maury Carroll]: Yeah, but also if I understand it correctly, let's say like Ward 1 would only have the councilors running for election to Ward 1, as well as all the at-large candidates that they would be voting on, correct? Correct. Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay.
[Ron Giovino]: So some people say that's a pro because you can focus. Others would say it's a con because you don't have say in the whole formation of the council.
[Milva McDonald]: you don't vote for as many people. Right.
[Eunice Browne]: But to Maury's point then, you could have, you know, so if we did the eight plus five being 13, so you've got, you're looking at the five at large, but then you're sitting in ward one and there's, you know, five or seven or 12 running for ward Councilor.
[Maury Carroll]: So, I think anything over two running for the ward council would go into a primary and the last two left standing would go into the general.
[Ron Giovino]: There would have to be some kind of rule that would go across the board because if you're gonna do it, you're gonna have a primary. You'd do a primary for everybody. So if ward seven had one person, And Ward 2 had six people as ward reps. And you're going to have a primary for them. I think you'd have a primary for everybody.
[Milva McDonald]: I think you would too. I think you would too. You do have a primary unless there's more than two.
[Ron Giovino]: But you also have the at-large piece too.
[Maury Carroll]: Exactly. To Ron's point, it's just like no different than if Paul Delato's running. He runs unopposed, but he's on the ballot. with his name and a line underneath for write-ins. The same thing would be like if the ward one councilor was running unopposed, you still could have a write-in slot as well as the at-large that were running. If you had seven or eight running for that one seat, you'd have a primary as well as the at-large would always be listed, I would imagine.
[Ron Giovino]: First, you have to decide if there's a primary based on, number one, a primary for the mayor. If there's a primary, everybody gets into the primary. If there's, then you go to state representatives. If there's state representative that need to have a primary, which is the case, then every person in the city would have a primary.
[Milva McDonald]: Some primary- Last year there was a primary for mayor and there wasn't a primary for city council two years ago, I mean.
[Eunice Browne]: Right, exactly. There was a primary for mayor and school committee, I think, but not city council.
[Ron Giovino]: So do you think that the council would, If there's a ward that only has one ward candidate, but there's a mayoral primary, and everybody's voting, nothing would be on the primary ballots for wards.
[Milva McDonald]: That's what I think, but I don't know for sure. I think we need to find that out. Is it pertinent to our- It's more logistics.
[Ron Giovino]: I mean, once we decide to do it, the election board will say how to do it.
[Jean Zotter]: That's the primary, but I think this pro was about the final election, right? Correct. Yes. Correct. It's not relevant for that exact point.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, and again, it's not, we're not making a decision on this. We're just trying to validate the pros and cons. Then we'll, so is everybody okay with how that pro reads?
[Eunice Browne]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay, so I'm just gonna check them off as we do it.
[Maury Carroll]: So number three is- Can I ask a quick question? Is it too much background noise coming from me because I'm trying to get in here? No. Okay.
[Ron Giovino]: I'm not hearing anything.
[Maury Carroll]: It gets to be too loud, let me know, yeah?
[Ron Giovino]: We'll shut you off, yes.
[Maury Carroll]: All right.
[Ron Giovino]: All right. Makes running for office more accessible. Cost of running campaign reduced to smaller voter pool. I mean, we've already talked about this at length, I think. I mean, that's a valid pro whether you agree with it or not. I mean, does that explain to you?
[Jean Zotter]: I think it's true, it's just not as... Yeah, right.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, no, I think that's what we're, you know, we're just validating that that's a good call. From the pro folks, that's one of the ones they say all the time, is it'll make it easier for me to, and maybe find new people to vote, to campaign. Okay, so I'm taking three and say it's okay. Number four, having a point of contact within their neighborhood improves communication.
[Maury Carroll]: That's a pro.
[Jean Zotter]: I think I agree with that. I might clarify who's communication. It's not clear what you mean.
[Ron Giovino]: Communication between- Ward residents.
[Maury Carroll]: I would say instead of neighborhood, like their individual ward or something like that, pertain it to the entire ward.
[Jean Zotter]: That's a good point. Yeah, having a point of contact within war improves voters communications with the Council or something. It's with City Hall or no, I mean, and doesn't. necessarily, I mean, City Hall will be more responsive, but they have one person they can call.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, I was just thinking of one of the interviews we did with the department head who actually specifically said that this person thought that ward representation would make City Hall, it would make their voters' communication with City Hall easier because their ward representative would be able to deal go to know how to move through City Hall in a more effective way.
[Maury Carroll]: Yeah, something like having a point of contact within their individual ward allows them the ability to communicate or say, um, accessibility to their, uh, to their individual Councilors.
[Milva McDonald]: I think that's the right, it is kind of accessibility. Yeah. Cause the, I mean, it, it improves it. It makes your Councilor is more accessible to you and responsive responsiveness. I mean,
[Ron Giovino]: Well, I mean, if it says, you know, having a point of contact within their ward, residents and their Councilors would improve communications.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, it's almost like, you know, the relationship can be more direct.
[Ron Giovino]: Correct.
[Milva McDonald]: Right.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm just trying to get the words.
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah, I know, I just want to get the words. I mean, what if we said residents would have a point of contact within their ward for communication or something?
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, improve communication. Communication.
[Milva McDonald]: A point of contact within their ward.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, that's what that's. Can you see what I just changed or you can't see what I just changed?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yes.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. So having a point of contact within their ward, residents and their Councilor would improve communications, would have improved. would have?
[Milva McDonald]: I think Jean had the beginning changed, right? Residents would have a point of contact within their ward. That's pretty succinct, though. If we just said residents would have a point of contact within their ward?
[Ron Giovino]: Well, yeah. I mean, so it says now, it says one of the pros is having a point of contact within their ward. then it says the next sentence, which is the residents and their Councilor would have improved communications. You want to put in ward Councilor?
[Milva McDonald]: I would put could, because we don't, because that's.
[Ron Giovino]: Well, again, a pro is kind of like, I'm trying to convince the cons what to, you know.
[Milva McDonald]: I know, but we don't know for sure that that would happen, so.
[Ron Giovino]: I'm going to add residents and their ward Councilor would have improved communications. Is that okay? Do you want to have would or could?
[Maury Carroll]: Even if you wanted to do like accessibility, communications, and relations, so it's more of a one-on-one type.
[Ron Giovino]: First, do you want it to say could? Yeah, I think could, because would sounds like it's- Could have improved communications and accessibility. Okay.
[Eunice Browne]: Wood sounds like we're promising something.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: Well, I mean, we could maybe play with that a little bit later. Yeah. It's hard to like edit within a group.
[Ron Giovino]: I'll send this out and you guys can slash away. Um, okay. So number four is good with the changes with edits.
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. Number five is eliminates duplication of work when at-large Councilors may be working on the same goals or issues. Yeah, I mean, it's a pro, but I mean, it's a fact of life right now, even in an at-large world, I mean.
[Milva McDonald]: Well, I just, I mean, what if we just said eliminates duplication of work? Yeah, I don't know. I think just in the idea of making them as succinct as possible.
[Ron Giovino]: I agree with you.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, it's self-explanatory, right?
[Maury Carroll]: I agree. To get their votes through, they're going to need the at-large Councilors and so forth to be working with them.
[Ron Giovino]: I think, yeah. Eliminates duplication of work. And if somebody has a question on it, then we can answer the question.
[Milva McDonald]: OK. Yeah, exactly.
[Ron Giovino]: OK. So we're approving that with edits.
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah, I think I wrote that one down when I did the pros and cons.
[Eunice Browne]: How do you mean? you know, give me an instance where it would be, you know, reducing or eliminating duplication.
[Ron Giovino]: I can give you an issue of, I go to Carr Park and I see a broken swing and I call Knight, Bears, Sen, Collins and say, hey, who's going to fix this? And they all come to Tuesday's meeting with this on the agenda. If it was Zach Beers' territory, you would more than likely call Zach Beers.
[Eunice Browne]: And he would call DPW and get it done.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah. Right. That's all. Just identifying a rep with a different place.
[Jean Zotter]: That makes sense.
[Ron Giovino]: OK. Number six is ward representation generally thought to increase diversity of representatives. Yes. Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, I do think, I just don't know if generally thought makes it, I mean, it's true that- You want to just say- You could be able- I mean, there's research that has shown that that's true. Generally.
[Ron Giovino]: I mean, we can just say one representative may increase diversity of representation.
[Milva McDonald]: How about often?
[Ron Giovino]: How about inclusive?
[Milva McDonald]: That's good. Often increases.
[Maury Carroll]: Often increases are, you know, what was I going to say? Not so much diversity, but it's inclusive of all neighborhoods within the city or all sections of representation.
[Jean Zotter]: Well, I think that the diversity.
[Maury Carroll]: Diversity is a key word that everything has to be diversity. It just increases the representation throughout the city of the individual areas.
[Jean Zotter]: Well, we did that in number one, right? Yeah, no, this is more about racial, ethnic, income. And that's what a lot of the literature shows.
[Ron Giovino]: I mean, if word representation often increases diversity of representation, that's all.
[Milva McDonald]: OK. So are we taking out generally?
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: I'm just getting out generally thought too and putting often increases diversity of representation.
[Milva McDonald]: That's good. I think that's good.
[Ron Giovino]: OK. So we still have to debate this, so I'm just trying to get the words down. Okay, number seven is increased number of Councilors would improve council efficiency, i.e. more subcommittees. In other words, if you have 11 reps, I think that you have the ability to have more projects being divvied out amongst the Councilors, kind of like what we do.
[Eunice Browne]: Well, I'll tell you right now they have something like 15 subcommittees already. And I mean, I watch most of the meetings and there's only about five subcommittees that. you know, meet with any sort of, and actually probably more like three that meet with any sort of regularity. There's some of them that I don't think I've met at all.
[Maury Carroll]: I do. That was a point for them to go to biweekly meetings that we were going to have. Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: And I also, I think though, I think it logically says that if I have seven people doing, uh, if I have 11 reps doing the work of seven, I get either more subcommittees or better efficiency within those subcommittees, because now I have, I can add two members to some of the big licensing and those kinds of boards. So.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I think we could take out the more subcommittee, just leave it.
[Ron Giovino]: I just used it as an example to explain.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I know. But I think we could, then that could be one of the things that we could talk about when we talk about it. And I would also just put could, just because I don't know.
[Ron Giovino]: It is. It does say it does. I did already make that change anticipating it. It says could improve.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. So seven is seven is good with edits.
[Ron Giovino]: Eight at large representation will still exist for three positions.
[Jean Zotter]: Uh, should we just say at, cause do we know the number? Yeah, I would, um,
[Ron Giovino]: We'll still exist.
[Milva McDonald]: Maybe we just say still exists in a hybrid system because that's what we're talking about. Right.
[Eunice Browne]: Yeah. Because it could be three or five.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Everybody okay with that.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. Uh, number nine is the needs of each distinct neighborhood better represented.
[Milva McDonald]: Is that a, is that a redundant from one? What do you think?
[Ron Giovino]: It's not because it kind of talks to the, uh, now I have somebody that's going to fix the sidewalk. Uh, you know, you'll have a, you'll feel like you're, you know, you have somebody representing your needs.
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah, you know, I guess. I was thinking this was more like, because we know some words have never had any representation. Sure. The city council may not understand the unique needs of word one and four, like they may not know the traffic issues they may not know walking to school so it's more they're more familiar with the neighborhood.
[Ron Giovino]: So they- Yeah, okay. So the needs of each distinct neighborhood better represented, is that not saying what you just said?
[Jean Zotter]: Well, I was just replying to Milva's wondering- Yeah, yeah. No, you're right. Yeah. Better represented and understood or something? Okay.
[Ron Giovino]: We can add in. I think adding in understood is a good one.
[Milva McDonald]: The only reason I would maybe stay away from represented is because when we talk a lot about representation in this issue and- People don't like that. No, we're talking about representation in a particular way. And even though the word can be used in this way, I'm not very articulate tonight. We're talking about something different.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, I hear you. Okay.
[Maury Carroll]: Well, according to that, we're concentrating on the neighborhoods. Shouldn't it be the needs of the ward?
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah. Each ward neighborhood instead of district.
[Milva McDonald]: But the neighborhoods in the ward, because the wards have... Say the needs of neighborhoods in the wards. In each ward.
[Maury Carroll]: Or within the ward, yep.
[Milva McDonald]: In a ward, yeah.
[Maury Carroll]: Okay. In a ward.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. Good. Everybody okay with that?
[Maury Carroll]: Yeah, let's go in front of the whole committee anyway.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, no, we have a bigger step to make after we get this edit done. So is there anything else that you want to add to that side of the ledger in terms of pros? I mean, I think we covered it all.
[Jean Zotter]: Or is this somewhere else? Do we want to say most cities of our size have hybrid representation? It's a trend for cities of our size in our state. Or is that not really a pro? Yeah.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, I don't know. I hear Eunice.
[Jean Zotter]: Oh, she's muted. Oh, sorry. You know, Milva, I think if you made us all hosts, we can mute and unmute ourselves.
[Eunice Browne]: I muted myself for a second because I had something on television I just wanted to hear real quick. I didn't want you guys to hear it and interrupt you and I couldn't unmute myself. I think, you know, some of the general things, you know, like talking about how we compare to other communities and things can be maybe done in the intro. In terms of X amount of cities and towns, X have ward representation and they have hybrid at large. This amount has amount of wards plus three, this amount of wards plus five.
[Milva McDonald]: Certainly, but to Gene's question was, is it a pro? Should it be listed as a pro?
[Ron Giovino]: And I will say this to Gene's point, too, is I think it's valid because the con right beside it talks about a negative about ward representation and uses historical views of outside of Medford. If you read into where that con comes from, it says ward representation can divide the city into its different parts. You may want to say in the con, you may want to say hybrid ward representation has seen a lot of success throughout the Commonwealth.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I mean, you would assume that it works or it would have been changed. That's a good point.
[Jean Zotter]: Right, yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: And it kind of combats that one that's right beside it too.
[Milva McDonald]: I would say that the hybrid ward representation is the preferred.
[Ron Giovino]: You wanna say most common?
[Milva McDonald]: It is more than the most common. I mean, it's almost every other city.
[Jean Zotter]: Right.
[Milva McDonald]: And Cambridge is one of the other cities that doesn't have Ward, but you can't really count them because they have ranked choice voting. So there's like maybe three, I mean, there's very few.
[Eunice Browne]: Have we interviewed Patricia yet?
[Milva McDonald]: Yes, David, Daveed, and Phyllis did.
[Eunice Browne]: And do we have her responses up yet?
[Milva McDonald]: They haven't submitted a report, but I asked them to send the views on word representation, and I summarized them last week.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Eunice Browne]: Because that's where most of my cons came from that I had typed in.
[Ron Giovino]: Yep. And most of them are, I think those, the ones, the last four are those comments, I think. Correct. Summarized.
[Eunice Browne]: Yeah. Some of them are.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah. Those are yours. I put all yours that you wrote in these comms. So, all right. So we'll leave it as the hybrid ward system is the preferred method throughout the Commonwealth. Period.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. So we accept those 10. Is there anybody have anyone else you want to add at this point?
[Jean Zotter]: The only other one I was thinking is that, um, so far the majority of comments we've received has been in favor of board representation. Is that a con or is it how we're going to make our decision?
[Ron Giovino]: a pro would be I mean, a pro is a pro is why did those people who said they want that? Yeah, what's the reason why? So you definitely the survey information? Well, we would we put that in our data. But to me, it's more of a It's not a pro of the decision. It's everybody agrees with the pro side, which you're, you know.
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah, I wasn't sure. I mean, it's definitely a pro in the sense that it might, people may lean towards it because it seems like what most residents want at least.
[Eunice Browne]: How many survey responses do we have now? Do we know? Almost 400. Okay.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Good.
[Eunice Browne]: I'd be interested in the age breakdown or the length of residency breakdown in terms of the answer about word representation. Is it the younger or more recent residents that want it?
[Milva McDonald]: We don't have that information. The demographics aren't broken down question by question. That would be interesting. Just for the whole survey. Right now, it's a pretty large majority that thinks that the council should switch toward representation. And most of them think the hybrids, yeah. It's really large, actually.
[Eunice Browne]: Can those results be shared with us on a regular basis?
[Milva McDonald]: Well, we can talk about that. I mean, I think that we can keep track of the number of responses and kind of the general responses. I don't know. I think maybe we should just wait and discuss it when it's finished. Because we don't know what's going to happen with the survey in the next month or two.
[Ron Giovino]: And I think Jean's either blocked from speaking or she has a comment.
[Jean Zotter]: Sorry, I meant to turn my video off, but I- Do you have a comment, Jean? No, I just wanted to be unmuted.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay, all right, so let's move to the cons. We can always go back if we need to. The cons are ward representatives may focus on only their ward needs and not those of the whole city. It's valid.
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah, I think that's proved by the studies that we've- Yeah, no, I think it's a valid con.
[Milva McDonald]: I agree, but I think we have it in there twice, so.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay, let's go down, and I just took them as they were added, so we can delete whatever you need to. All right, so number one is okay, everybody's okay?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: And number two, residents vote for fewer candidates, so it's the opposite of the pro in people wanting to have a full say in every candidate. So the pro is I can focus on four, or at least one, not as many, And the con is, I want to do many.
[Eunice Browne]: Yeah, I think you need to have the flip side of the coin. Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: So we could make that exactly, how do we want to say that? Just write residents vote for fewer candidates as a con?
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, their choices are, they have fewer choices.
[Ron Giovino]: Right, but do we want to eliminate the example that says currently vote for seven seats versus, do you want to get rid of that?
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. Yeah, I think that that's.
[Milva McDonald]: Voting for fewer candidates reduced, you know, means less, I don't know. Right, but is it basically what we say in the next one?
[Jean Zotter]: Well, that's, they seem similar. You don't have a say about other words.
[Ron Giovino]: Well, we can put that up there and eliminate number three if you want to just take that whole sentence and move it to number two.
[Milva McDonald]: I think that's what it's, I think that's what the beef is, right? That's the point that that's why. Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah. Right. I mean, we can, so we could combine, so we combine three and two.
[Milva McDonald]: I think so. Yeah.
[Maury Carroll]: How about instead of saying say, we use the word voice to not have a voice over any other words.
[Eunice Browne]: Yeah, that's better.
[Milva McDonald]: And basically when it comes down to it is that voters can't choose all their city councilor.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Exactly.
[Milva McDonald]: That's actually, I like that. Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: What do you want to say?
[Milva McDonald]: Voters can't choose who all the, you know, who all the city councilors are.
[Eunice Browne]: They can only. Voters have a limited choice. They can only choose who represents their ward and. At large. And the at large councilors.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Does this say it?
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah.
[Adam Hurtubise]: There you go.
[Jean Zotter]: I mean, the other point with the one year, the third bullet is say there's a Councilor who's other wards feel like is blocking things that are important to them. They can't vote that person out. So I don't know if it's different.
[Ron Giovino]: But that goes to the whole argument of ward versus at-large.
[Maury Carroll]: It happens now, but this way, it's only one person versus the rest of them that they feel is also... One person blocking it isn't going to be able to stop it.
[Ron Giovino]: Gene, your point is very valuable, but that is the other side of the coin of saying, you know, you can't touch my ward. But if you wanted to do that, you would sacrifice guaranteeing a ward, each ward has a rep, in order to give them the power to eliminate one.
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah, I guess I was just trying to think, is there another point, like when you're voting, you're not able to vote for all the city council, but voting's where you voice your opinion, right? So if someone's served a term and then you're unhappy with them, you have no recourse, I guess. You have no recourse over the, I don't know if that's a different way of saying, I don't know if that's any different than what we've already have up there. Do you know?
[Milva McDonald]: I think it's just sort of what we would elaborate on about that. But we could just say something like, it's hard to read that blue. Voters cannot vote for or against, they can't vote for or against Councilors outside their ward.
[Maury Carroll]: Yeah, if something gets put in an individual ward that the residents were really up against, so, you know, like a marijuana dispensary, yet the rest of the rest of your Councilors in that large feels, oh, that's a good location, so it gets voted in. They don't have a choice to go after the ones that voted it in. They're still stuck in their individual ward, who probably their Councilor Yeah, that is the whole argument.
[Ron Giovino]: That is the whole argument of this ward versus at-large. That's the whole argument right there. So, okay, so voters cannot vote for the entire city council. Milva, what did you want it to say?
[Milva McDonald]: Or against. I guess that's right.
[Ron Giovino]: Or against.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, present both sides. Right.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. All right, I'm deleting. So number two is okay with the edit? Okay. And number three has been deleted and combined into number two.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Great. Okay. So we're on to number four. Ward boundaries may not reflect how communities see themselves.
[Milva McDonald]: I think that's pretty well expressed.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah. Okay. Everybody approve that one?
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: All right. Populations change. Population change can result in unequal workloads for Councilors.
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah, it'd be helpful if we knew, like I know we have a maximum and then, but like some words 4,000 and others are six, I don't know.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, I don't know how you fix that anyways.
[Jean Zotter]: I thought they were evenly.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I thought they were pretty even. They're pretty even.
[Ron Giovino]: But also the other piece of that too is that just because you have a lot of people doesn't mean that the 2,000 people ward is less complaining.
[Milva McDonald]: And depending on what's in the wards, some, you know, it could be like, if you have Medford Square in your ward, you know, you're gonna maybe be busier. Right.
[Maury Carroll]: On the flip side of the coin is if you're in a heavily, like commercial area, you're gonna have less residents to deal with. So I mean, I'm just talking about that area, I mean, yeah.
[Eunice Browne]: Well, for example, if you look at Ward 4-1, which kind of encompasses, from Boston Ave towards the Somerville line, kind of upward. I live on just, you know, off of Winthrop, so I'm in 4-2. But if you go up to where the Boston Ave and Winthrop cross, 4-1 starts like on the hillside, hardware side of Boston Ave. And if you go down Winthrop, if you're going towards Somerville, The left-hand side is basically all Tufts. So the dorms, the academic buildings, and things like that. So you're not going to be hearing from students. They go directly to Tufts for things. The right-hand side is the residential side. And this is borne out when you see the voting results, too. It's probably the lowest voting. Warden precinct in the city. On the other hand, I suppose if you're dealing with tufts, you're dealing with big issues. So you might not be hearing from as many individuals, but then you're dealing with the monstrosity that's tufts.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, I mean, again, it's a valid con, whether it's- Wait, no, I think we should say ward differences can result in- Yeah, I agree.
[Jean Zotter]: That's what I was thinking is- Okay, ward differences can result.
[Ron Giovino]: Got it.
[Jean Zotter]: Okay.
[Milva McDonald]: Ward differences. Ward size differences? I would just say differences. It might not even be size, right?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: It could be like what's in your ward or-
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, I think that's good. That's general. It's good. Ward differences can result in unequal workloads for Councilors. Okay. Does anybody want to change that?
[Milva McDonald]: No, I think that's good.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. So that was number five. Everybody's good with that?
[Unidentified]: All right.
[Ron Giovino]: Number six is if you don't vote for a ward candidate who gets elected, will they serve your needs? Okay. That's a con.
[Milva McDonald]: I don't agree that this is, that this should be on here.
[Maury Carroll]: I mean, it's no different than today.
[Milva McDonald]: The way you want it, you know, and yeah, any any elected office.
[Ron Giovino]: Well, yes, but again, it's it's it's a question of is it a con? Or is it a con that will make you decide again?
[Milva McDonald]: So it's not a con specifically of ward representation.
[Jean Zotter]: Unless it's going to be, you know, you've got a much smaller neighborhood. And now you're expected to just go more transparent. So you know people more and you're having an issue in your neighborhood and you contact your word. You're expected to contact your word representative you do have your at large but what if you're I don't know. I mean, I don't know if Donato mentioned it, because he actually saw it happen in other cities.
[Eunice Browne]: Well, Malden has wood representation, and he does what he represents a piece of Malden, so he's probably seen it.
[Ron Giovino]: That did not come up in my discussion with Malden.
[Milva McDonald]: So this is like the person knows that you didn't vote for them.
[Ron Giovino]: Because it's a small community.
[Jean Zotter]: Or no, you might have canvassed for the opposition. You don't have a sign on your lawn.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I just all I'm saying is, I think it applies to any elected office.
[Ron Giovino]: I agree with you. But it does.
[Milva McDonald]: You're saying is because it's this small neighborhood thing, you're getting into hyperlocal intensifies, right?
[Jean Zotter]: And you will have at large, but like now, if it say you went for a candidate and They didn't get elected and so someone's mad at you. You have other, you have all six other people that choose.
[Ron Giovino]: And from the con standpoint, if I'm, if I'm living in Ward three, and I'm holding signs for Jim X, and the other guy wins. I don't, from this standpoint, this is not what I believe, but from this standpoint, I don't really have a ward rep anymore. I need to use, you know, the guy in ward five. I'm just, all I'm saying is I don't agree with it. I'm just saying, I'm trying to explain what this issue is.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I get it, but.
[Ron Giovino]: I hear you.
[Milva McDonald]: It just makes little sense to me, that's all.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, well this is why I took names off of who made these up.
[Jean Zotter]: Right, I just, the only reason I'm saying where I got that one is just I thought he may have some experience based on representing Malden and Medford.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, if we're talking about this, it's not just if you don't vote for them, it's if they don't like you.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Right.
[Milva McDonald]: For some reason, right? Right. It's like, your house is ruining the neighborhood because you don't mow your lawn enough or something.
[Ron Giovino]: But also remember that- There could be any reason that somebody would A state rep has to live in Medford, have a history in Medford, and then he has to go campaign in Malden. So maybe he experiences some of that there too. I don't know. I don't know.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay. That's fine. If you guys want to leave it, it's fine.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah. I mean, all right. So we're not, we're just leaving it as is. Yes.
[Jean Zotter]: I like it, but.
[Eunice Browne]: I agree with Jane. I think it's a con because if Bill and Bob are running and you have Bill's sign on your lawn, but Bob wins.
[Ron Giovino]: To Milva's point too, it happens all over the place too.
[Milva McDonald]: People know who's holding signs.
[Ron Giovino]: And the reverse is true too. If you are holding signs for a Councilor and that Councilor wins, you expect that you have a better relationship because of that. So yeah, that's why I do it. Okay. Number seven. Ward representatives might prioritize their wards above the needs of the entire city. Very valid point.
[Jean Zotter]: I feel like that was number one. Yeah, I think that's number one. Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Oh, I got you.
[Jean Zotter]: Just a repeat. Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Focus on that. OK, so that is a repeat. That was one of the add-ons. All right, so we're getting rid of that. It's already there.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Right?
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I think so.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, it is. It's almost word for word. And I think that's one of the big major cons. Okay, number seven is approved tonight. All right, ward number eight, ward representation can reduce the number of qualified candidates. And I think that's valid because if there are currently four, I don't know if there are, but if there's three reps in one ward, only one can be the ward rep and the other two have to go into the general at large. So it is true.
[Milva McDonald]: Um, I don't, I don't know. I don't get that one. Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Well, let's say, let's say right now, candidate A, B and C come out of Ward 3. Only one of them can be the ward rep. Yeah, so so in the case, so two of them have to decide because you have to decide whether you're going out large or ward. So not only do I if I decide to battle it out in the ward against the other guy thinking I'm going to win and I lose, I don't only lose, I'm out of the I'm out of the council. So I think that's what that talks about.
[Jean Zotter]: But isn't
[Maury Carroll]: I think that's only going to happen on the first year that this goes into it. I agree with you, but I think the person who wrote this... What determines them being a qualified candidate, because... I think there are Councilors on there now that aren't qualified, but that's my opinion, you know?
[Ron Giovino]: I think that that's worth a comment. I think, and I'm trying to think for the person who thought that was important, and I think that that's the reason, is because if this happens, it's going to impact how they campaign and how you win. So it's not like, you know, If you were, and I think that to delve deeper, it's like those folks think that one of the people who don't win could be in the top eight people on the ballot. You know, you could be one of the top seven, I mean, of the ballot and still not be on the council because you ran against somebody in your own ward. So it's not a, and that number one guy in the ward could have gotten. Well, it doesn't, it doesn't because if I ran for, if I ran for at large, let's say that, let's say that I'm running and I decide I'm going at large because I, I think that the person will beat me in my ward. So now I go into the at large population and I finished number four, which means, yeah, number four, which means I don't get in. But my number four guy, it's hard to tell because the wards will have less numbers anyways. So there's that.
[Maury Carroll]: Is it that you're thinking they've already thought they're going to get beat. So they didn't go one-on-one.
[Ron Giovino]: I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I just want to get to what I'm trying to get to is what the con is. And then, then we can talk about is, you know, how do we decide what our recommendations that are valid.
[Eunice Browne]: This came from Patricia and the way I, piped it out originally from the notes that I had from a Facebook post of hers from a couple of years ago was, ward representation can reduce the number of qualified candidates. If two well-qualified candidates, let's call them Bill and Bob, are running against each other in ward one, and they're both exceptionally well-qualified to be Councilors, Bill gets in. Bob now doesn't get a seat at all, but maybe if they had both run at large, and again, they're well-qualified, then they might've, you know, if we had an all at large, they both might've gotten in, but because in a ward, only one gets in, Bill gets in, Bob doesn't.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, I guess I- To Mari's point, who's qualified is very subjective.
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah, I don't like qualified, it's sort of,
[Milva McDonald]: I also don't see how it, because we have an at-large system now, and you know, a lot of people would say that the more qualified candidates didn't get in last time.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, I do think it's valid in some way, but to say qualified kind of bothers me.
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah, the qualified, maybe the, maybe you say ward representation can reduce the number of,
[Ron Giovino]: I mean, you're basically you're saying in a way... We could say ward representation can impact the election of top candidates, which is true.
[Maury Carroll]: I think we're struggling to put it in there.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, again, I just don't want to, I don't want to take it out because it's not the answer. It's the question that we're trying to get to. But if we say that ward representation can impact election results, why don't we just say that?
[Jean Zotter]: I don't think that, that doesn't really say it.
[Ron Giovino]: Well, it's kind of, it does because it, you know, you're forced to, again, eight people of an 11 member council will get in because they're in the ward. So right now there are seven people that get chosen at large. Now it's gonna be three people in that hybrids scenario.
[Jean Zotter]: I think it's, we're saying if multiple people that wanna run, let's leave out qualifiers like qualified. If multiple people in a ward wanna run, they're limited with their options of getting elected, right? Like we're saying, let's say Ward 2 has five people that run a run. They could have all run and at large and might've all gotten elected. But now if you go to a hybrid.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, why don't we just, can we just say Ward representation can limit options of candidates and just end it like that?
[Maury Carroll]: But no, to the point though, at large, all three, if it's three or five, they could all come from the same ward. They could come from a heavy, heavy voting.
[Jean Zotter]: You know, sorry. Maury, right now, seven could all come from ward two. It doesn't. Exactly. But now only, if you go to hybrid, you only have three.
[Ron Giovino]: Let's say, let's say this, let's say it this way. And then it's wide open.
[Milva McDonald]: If we say- I feel like this is a problem for the candidates, not the- Well, I mean, the candidates could be a con.
[Ron Giovino]: We just say ward representation may limit candidate options. And for whatever, but if that doesn't, if that's not a factor for you, then it's not a factor, but it's kind of-
[Eunice Browne]: We need to be able to back all these things up if people say, well, what do you mean it limits options?
[Ron Giovino]: Well, I think we can explain that. I think we can explain that question in terms of what we just talked about. What I'm trying to do is give a statement of a con that somebody has represented in discussions. that if you wanted to take the other side of the table, somebody could legitimately say, well, why would I do this? If I'm saying limitations, the number one limitation I see is a ward that currently has two or three Councilors on it. Now that Councilor has to make a decision. And that's what I mean by their options have changed. That's all.
[Milva McDonald]: Candidate options, shouldn't it be candidate, not candidates? Because we're not talking about their, right?
[Ron Giovino]: It says candidate possessor.
[Milva McDonald]: Oh, so we want to say we're talking about the options of candidates as opposed to candidate options for the voters?
[Ron Giovino]: Well, yes. Well, we can say either way because either way it impacts the voters.
[Milva McDonald]: I feel like just say candidate.
[Ron Giovino]: How about do you want to say, you want to say election options?
[Milva McDonald]: No, candidate options. That's what we just talked about, right?
[Ron Giovino]: So ward representative may limit candidates' options.
[Milva McDonald]: Just candidate options, meaning the options of candidates.
[Adam Hurtubise]: OK, got it.
[Jean Zotter]: So you may be like three people in ward two, but now you're limited.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, OK.
[Jean Zotter]: Is that how you're framing it, Milva?
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, I understand what you're saying. More from the field of the vote.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, the candidate options are going to be limited in terms of Everything we just said, I guess. I don't know.
[Jean Zotter]: Because we know most of them come from, is it ward four? Two and four, right? Or I forget. Two and six. Two and six. I mean, maybe we do want it to be the candidate's options.
[Milva McDonald]: And that is the reason why you would- I mean, we said it would make it easier for them to run for office. Now we're even saying it's limiting their options.
[Ron Giovino]: Does that make sense? I think it makes more sense to me.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. Yeah. So you want it like that?
[Milva McDonald]: The possessive, yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Candidates you want it as candidates option.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah possessive, right?
[Ron Giovino]: I Yeah, that's what I had. I thought you wanted it.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. No, I'm sorry. I made this all very confusing.
[Ron Giovino]: I'm sorry No, it's good because now What this pros and cons is it's it's a it's a it's a Checklist of how you should make your decision and looking at some of the options if you haven't thought about them already I And the final one is kind of concise. The purpose of the city council is to represent the whole city, not to make it easier to get elected. Now that does, that goes back to number one, but it says it a little bit differently.
[Jean Zotter]: Um, that doesn't make sense to me though.
[Ron Giovino]: Well, I mean, I think all the points that say, you know, it's easier for. me to run a campaign because I have to do it in a smaller area. I think that's what that means.
[Eunice Browne]: I don't need as much money. I think that's what that's answering.
[Milva McDonald]: However, there's other pros that we outlined. That's not the only reason for ward representation. So like, to me, if you're going to have that one there, you should just say the purpose of the city council should be to represent the whole city and end it there.
[Ron Giovino]: The purpose is to represent the whole city. Got it.
[Jean Zotter]: Or should it be? Is it? Or should it be?
[Ron Giovino]: Well, from that standpoint, a person would argue that, Jean, I think.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[Maury Carroll]: I think that's right. Because the candidate, even though they're working with their individual ward, they should be also working what's in the best interest for the entire city.
[Ron Giovino]: Well, to be honest with you, I don't think that, I think 99.9% of the work they'll do it requires that you do the whole city, because it's one of 11 votes. So you're not going to be able to say, we're not empowering them to say, this ward says no, you can't do that here. I'm approving permits. There's no powers involved in this. You still have to get along. You still have to work as a unit. So, okay. So that's how we're changing that with edits. And then the final one we've already talked about, number 10.
[Milva McDonald]: I would just take out, divide the city. I don't understand, why into its different parts?
[Ron Giovino]: Divide, you just want to, may divide the city? Is that what you want to say?
[Maury Carroll]: I don't think you need to divide. Divide is divisive, you know what I'm saying?
[Milva McDonald]: I would say, you know, just take out into its different parts.
[Maury Carroll]: Yeah, okay.
[Milva McDonald]: Is that?
[Ron Giovino]: Do you want to say, yeah, okay. Do you want to say may divide the city?
[Eunice Browne]: Hitting one part of the city against another in terms of, you know, what one would might want or not want.
[Maury Carroll]: The rest of the city, the rest of the council, it may not go along with that thinking.
[Milva McDonald]: You don't think representation can divide the city says that?
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, it does. I think, well, do you want to, is it may or can?
[Milva McDonald]: Can't, either one.
[Ron Giovino]: I just want to say nay. Seems more forceful.
[Adam Hurtubise]: It's a good one. Nay can.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah. Nay can. All right. Is there any other additional pros and cons that we didn't get to?
[Maury Carroll]: I think you did a great job. It was good.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, I think it's good too. I think it gives them a platform to use, right? At least show what we talked about. And if they have questions, again, We're going to be able to answer the questions. That's the key.
[Maury Carroll]: Exactly.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. So, um, having completed that exercise and we have 25 minutes, I think it's, uh, without further ado, I think, is it not time to discuss the, um, is anybody want to, uh, give their vote so that we know which way we're presenting here? I mean, it's up to you, if you want to have a discussion. I think the next logical step before we start dealing in the details of the presentation is where are we at? I mean, I know we've had two straw polls and, you know, we've I know there's been questions.
[Maury Carroll]: Why don't we answer it the other way? With the undecided ones, have they come up with a decision yet?
[Ron Giovino]: Well, I mean, if everybody's ready to vote yes, if somebody wants to further discuss and get more details because they're on the fence, I think this is the time to discuss.
[Eunice Browne]: Well, then let me say this then, because I'm the undecided one here.
[Unidentified]: Yeah.
[Eunice Browne]: I was thinking about this off and on over the last few days after I read the pros and cons and went back and I listened to our last meeting to go over my own piece with the data and stuff to make sure I was clear on what we needed. But I was listening to a good deal of the meeting again. And I feel like we as a subcommittee and then we, the 11 of us, seem And the survey's still out there. We have just under 400 responses we learned tonight and hopefully lots more to go with it being available for two more months. I feel like we're predisposed toward representation without hearing from a wide swath of the city. I do wish that these pros and cons were out there now as people are responding to the survey, they may feel like one way is the way that they wanna go where they haven't really seen the other side and maybe there's something on the other side that says, oh, I didn't think of this. I thought I was going with board representation, but wow, I saw that con and I really think now I've changed my mind. I feel like we as a group are predisposed to ward representation. I almost feel like, you know, and I watch too much Law and Order, but that we've already zeroed in on the suspect and we're just, you know, making the evidence fit the suspect instead of looking at the evidence and seeing where it leads us. You know, I would know what we want to do.
[Maury Carroll]: How about we go back to the entire thing without mentioning any names and say, this is what we've come up with with pros and cons. Three or four are in favor of this way. One person is against. And let's have a discussion with the whole committee and see what they do without mentioning any names who's in favor or who's against.
[Ron Giovino]: Well, I think, let me just say a couple of words. First of all, I think one of the responsibilities, as I understand this committee, is to do the work and to also pass forth a recommendation. Now, to Eunice's point, we are creating a presentation that's going in front of the Committee of the Whole, and then it's going in front of the public, that presentation. without, with only a recommendation. So our recommendation is this, the committee of the whole recommendation could be totally different. That's why it's, you know, it's not worth writing up a full presentation if they decide against what we recommend. And then in October, whatever date that is in October, the public meeting, that's gonna be their first chance to look at this one singular piece of what they'll be voting on once it gets on the ballot. So in terms of giving them the pros and the cons and all the information, that's really the purpose of the public meeting is to give them that ability to fully understand. And I think our charge is to number one, provide the information, which we can check that off because I think we've done ample research, and I also think that a, you know, an honest vote, I mean, MOVA's called for a vote twice the last two meetings, and an undecided vote is an okay vote. I mean, the reporting back is, you know, four people voted for, one person is undecided. Now here is, now let's go to the Committee of the Whole. It's valuable information. Then if the Committee of the Whole says seven, four, three undecided, maybe from that we'll decide to go back and do more work. But in my opinion, in my strong opinion is that if we pull back and start creating more research again, we will be, there's definitely more research to do, but we also have a ton of, you know, there's a school committee, subcommittee starting. I'm sure Milva has other ideas for more and more subcommittees. We have to, in my opinion, we have to cut it and say, okay, we did our job. We're either for it, against it or undecided. And then we pack up that box of data and we put it in our file and we'll recall it when is necessary. But we really have an obligation to get this thing done and to at least understand that we're presenting in front of the public and then the public should give us their opinion. It's not nothing we're doing, nothing. until nothing is in stone. If the public comes back with 100 surveys saying, you guys are crazy, I don't want board representation, then we have to represent them. That's what this is all about. But I also think that we're charged with the responsibility of not only doing the research and putting the data together, but also letting them know that because we've dug so deep, we have this opinion. And I know that if we didn't have this vote, they'll be asking for that vote. At least I would hope they would. That's just my two cents. Anybody? Jean, go ahead.
[Jean Zotter]: Well, Eunice, I think I heard you say you're undecided, not against. Right, undecided.
[Eunice Browne]: And I don't mind putting my name out there. I mean, I own what I say. Sure.
[Ron Giovino]: No, and it's fine.
[Eunice Browne]: I want to clarify that.
[Jean Zotter]: And then I think if we vote, I agree with you, Ron, we have to start moving forward so we can get to the drafting. But if all the survey results come in and it's very negative about ward representation, I'm assuming as a committee we might reopen that discussion and say, okay, Here's where we're headed. But now we've looked at everything. And so that I don't think our vote here is final final until we go through all our public processes. That's how I'm thinking of it is that I agree 100% 100% and until
[Ron Giovino]: You know, until there's a vote of the actual the vote, not the front of the city council vote, not the mayor's vote, but when it gets on the ballot, that's when we know that this thing will pass this one piece of so many Milva.
[Milva McDonald]: Um, I just want to say. I think Jean's understanding is right. The same way that we, the committee decided that we would keep the mayor unless the public, unless we had some reason to change course, which has not happened yet. I also think that, you know, I do think it's okay to do our presentation next week before the whole committee and just give them the information. And then, cause the committee is going to vote. hopefully next week. So we don't have to make this vote and we don't have to go to the whole committee and say, well, we voted and this is what we think. We could just make our presentation and then let the committee discuss it and vote with the whole committee.
[Ron Giovino]: Yep, we can. And we already have two votes on the record. So they'll know, I think they'll understand.
[Milva McDonald]: And maybe that is the way to go.
[Ron Giovino]: to just give the presentation and then, okay. I agree. I know.
[Milva McDonald]: What do you guys think? I mean, if this is, these are, you know, we put together these pros and cons, give them the data about, you know, the representation of the historical representation of wards for the past 20 years that we collected. just, you know, all the stuff that we collected, just tell them. And then, and it will open a discussion, and then there will be a discussion, and then at the end of that discussion, we'll have a vote.
[Ron Giovino]: Right, and the only thing to that is, in that discussion, the presentation is going to, if I'm listening to a presentation, to me, it's hard for me to, you know, knowing that we're already in public, given my opinion, I can't stand up there and be neutral. I think people will know that, you know, what my opinion is just by the way I'm talking in the discussion, because not only are we presenting, then we're discussing it. So the first thing I, you know, I mean, we're going to give our opinion. I'm just, I'm just, maybe I'm dead wrong, but I just thought that the subcommittee would work through this and make a recommendation.
[Jean Zotter]: And then whatever happens, we did talk about that. Yeah. That was our charge. I mean, have we talked about, are we majority vote? Um, are we consensus or are we majority vote?
[Milva McDonald]: Um, we haven't made any rules for this subcommittee.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah. I just don't, I don't think we, I don't think a straw vote needs to be any more than four. Harmon Zuckerman, PB – Peter Vitale PB – He, Him, His): To two yeses to knows one undecided. I mean, it doesn't, it has no impact on what happens. It's just information for the people receiving the information.
[Jean Zotter]: Well, for our recommendation. Yeah, only comfortable making a recommendation. If we have consensus. Oh, or are we okay making a recommendation and just saying we're four in favor, one undecided, and here's our recommendation based on that. Because everything we say on the, we're recorded, it's all public record, we can't hide who's voting. So I don't think we have to.
[Milva McDonald]: I still think we're fine going and just giving our presentation, having a whole committee discussion, and then having the committee vote.
[Ron Giovino]: So we make no recommendation at the end of this presentation.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, we can say, um, our thoughts during the presentation, we can say, you know, but I, but, um, I don't know. I don't think it's a necessity.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I mean, I, I'm okay with doing whatever.
[Ron Giovino]: I mean, I, again, my opinion was that I thought the expectation was that we would come back with a clear presentation showing that we know the facts and did the research, and based on that and the hours that we've spent on this, we would have a recommendation.
[Milva McDonald]: But if that's not- I'm okay with that, too. And if we did do that, we already know what it is because we've already taken, you know- Yeah, I don't think anybody's changed their mind.
[Ron Giovino]: No, and I just don't, I don't, if it was three to two yeses to nos, we would probably consider coming up with the two options in detail. And if we still, we can do that if you, if you, I mean, I think everybody knows the two choices.
[Milva McDonald]: Well, I do know there was at least one committee member who talked about wanting to be, understand the differences between a hybrid system and what would the benefit of that be over just enlarging that large city council?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: Um, you know, and so we haven't talked about that option really very much. What if we just made the at-large council larger?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Right.
[Maury Carroll]: But we have a little bit because that's the same thing. It's still that large, whether there's seven, whether there's 25.
[Ron Giovino]: I mean, what is the, what is the research necessary to do that? I don't know.
[Milva McDonald]: I don't know. I know that the person who, or the committee member who was wondering about that was very concerned with diversity. And I think that it's pretty clear that the research and the data is clear that ward representation increases, you know, increases diversity.
[Ron Giovino]: A lot better than, I mean, at large is just a larger random sample. Right. But I mean, to that point, to that point, if we're showing Ward representation and we're showing at large, we need to show that just increasing the number. And then again, I'm just saying, it's like, if I was listening to our presentation, one of the first questions I would have is, well, what is your opinion? And I'm not saying we need to delve into a lot of the stuff. I'm just saying post it as part of the data, because we have two public votes already.
[Milva McDonald]: I'm okay with that.
[Ron Giovino]: And if we just say, you know, the committee has, the committee vote, the final committee vote was whatever it is. I mean, I'm not sure.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I mean, the committee's gonna vote, so, you know.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, it is, right. It's a living document too.
[Milva McDonald]: And then we're gonna vote again with the committee, so.
[Ron Giovino]: Correct. Yes, yes, yes. But I mean, undecided is not a vote. I mean, it's a, I can, you know, they don't, you know, we can all vote undecided. But I mean, I think that we've taken two votes. I think that whatever vote you have, and if you've changed your mind, I think that's really important. I think taking the vote is very valuable, because at the end of each session, I'd like to know if anybody's changed their mind and why. So I do think it's valuable. But to me, I'm just, I just think that it would be nice to have a vote and explain, you know, which vote, which one of the options, and we can put the third option in there. It's just simply adding 11 at live draft. Is that what you want?
[Eunice Browne]: Let's just go ahead and vote again and, you know, see if anybody's changed their mind.
[Maury Carroll]: I don't think it's that much of a game changer one way or the other because If I'm not on this committee and I'm on the whole committee, and when you present this to the entire committee, whether you are endorsing one over the other is not a factor on how I feel. I'm going to make up my own decision one way or the other.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm assuming that, yeah, that's very true. I'm just saying to me, to close the book on the subcommittee is have a result. And whatever that result is, it's fine.
[Jean Zotter]: I think we have some housekeeping stuff we have to do and I know we're leaving right now. Yeah, I'm really sorry about that. We have to end right at eight. You have to open it up for public comment a couple of minutes before. Yeah. Cause I just want to like who's doing the slides and how are we voting together? Can we vote quickly and then decide whether we want a recommendation slide or not? And then the housekeeping. Okay.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. So those in favor of hybrid ward representation, just for a show of hands. Four. Those in favor of, At-large, raise your hand. Those in favor of adding the at-large council to 11.
[Maury Carroll]: I would just say adding to the existing number of at-large councils. Delimiting to or from, but that's up to you guys.
[Ron Giovino]: In any undecided. One. One. Okay, so it's four, four for hybrid, zero for at large, zero for adding more Councilors and one undecided. Okay?
[Jean Zotter]: Yep.
[Ron Giovino]: All right, so let's go very quickly back to, I'm gonna write the intro and get that out hopefully by the weekend. And then that, is it Eugene that does the first part or is it Eunice?
[Eunice Browne]: So do we want? Can we go back to the presentation part?
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah, I got to find it. Yes. It'd be good. I don't know if we're going to run out of time, but Ron, if you gave us an agenda, like who's doing what. I think we said I go first.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, I think we wrote it.
[Jean Zotter]: Or maybe it should be Eunice goes first, and then I go.
[Ron Giovino]: I think Eunice went first. Let me see. I have it here. I'm just going to find it.
[Jean Zotter]: And I think the stuff Danielle gave me, I think I can update if I can figure out the data. I think I can update my slides for the eight wards.
[Ron Giovino]: OK. So we have actually what we did originally was you were first, Jean, with your demographics. Then Eunice was with her election data. And that was with the slides that we chose from last meeting.
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah.
[Ron Giovino]: Right? And Eunice, I know that you had more data that you're either waiting for or... Yeah, Jean and I did some work yesterday on the
[Eunice Browne]: you know, actual candidate wood representation data and put together some slides yesterday. I don't think we have time to look at them. Um, but as for the rest of the data, you know, I, I'm trying to get stuff from the city. Um, it's proving difficult to say the least, um, uh, in terms of, you know, getting that data that we wanted, that would give us the turnout versus the candidates, the ward turnout, I don't think that I'm gonna be able to get that.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, I think, did we get the, what were we looking for? The number of candidates by ward, is that? And you have that, except it doesn't go back.
[Eunice Browne]: Yeah, we have that. We did. We have the voter turnout by ward versus the registration registered voters. I don't think I'm going to be able to get. Yeah. I did go back to, to Maury's point last time, going back further, I did actually spend, um, a good portion of last weekend. I went, the, the data on the city website goes back to 2005, not 2001, as we talked about the other day. So I did go back over the weekend and populated my spreadsheets all the way back to 2005. But all that was available there pretty much was the breakdown by candidate and by ward of how many ballots, how many votes they received. Turnout was just, you know.
[Ron Giovino]: Did you work with a gene on the tables or the pie charts, whatever you were doing?
[Eunice Browne]: As far as, you know, what candidates represented what. So you're going to show. Any turnout or anything I can't get.
[Ron Giovino]: So my vision is this. My vision is that we're talking through this at our meeting. So what I just need to know is, Jean, you have your two slides. And, you know, we're going to limit it to your talk about where this information came and what the slides mean. Right. OK, so you've got that. You're comfortable with that?
[Jean Zotter]: Yeah. Danielle just gave me a big data dump for the eight wards. And it's up to me to analyze it. So I just have to make sure I can actually write the algorithms and figure it all out. And I asked David to help me. So the by ward slide, I'm going to try to do. I'm trying.
[Ron Giovino]: OK, I got you. So if you need something, just email the group and we'll. So your piece is the slides, and you're going to talk to it. And Eunice, you have how many slides do you have?
[Eunice Browne]: I think there were, what, four? I think they're in the folder. So you can look at them. I put them in the folder.
[Jean Zotter]: There's four. OK. You can look at them and let Eunice know which ones you like, I guess. You can kind of present it in different ways.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. And Eunice, you're prepared to do the same and talk about how you gathered it and then talk to the charts and what they show.
[Eunice Browne]: Right. I may touch base with you on offline about some of the other data.
[Ron Giovino]: Sure.
[Eunice Browne]: No problem.
[Ron Giovino]: No problem. And Milva, you're going to just briefly talk about an option. Very briefly.
[Milva McDonald]: Depending on what If the word demographics come through, then there may be something else to say, but.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah. And then I'll just put the, redo these, the edits on the pros and cons. And then just in my intro, I'm talking about the surveys and the interviews that were done to help compile this information.
[Eunice Browne]: And the current makeup of the council.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah. And yeah, the current makeup of the town, what it looks like, what the three options are. I'll also talk about the straw vote and the recommendation, how we see it. And then we'll move to a discussion about, um, and we'll probably pull up that pros and cons slide again and have everybody discuss that.
[Jean Zotter]: We talked about a map. So I sent you the recent map.
[Ron Giovino]: I saw that new map. Yeah. I saw that new map. Yep. Yep.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. And again, we did discuss them.
[Ron Giovino]: I do too, and I think if we trim ours to less time, it gives more time for them to ask the questions, and that's gonna drive the discussion.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I think that's important to try to make our, be as succinct as possible because the committee's gonna wanna.
[Ron Giovino]: Yep, yeah, so I'll work on that this weekend, my piece, and send it out so you all can see what it's gonna look like, and then we'll.
[Jean Zotter]: Are we trying to put it all into one PowerPoint?
[Ron Giovino]: I can, I can do a PowerPoint. Let me start a PowerPoint and I'll send it out and you can all look at it this weekend and see.
[Milva McDonald]: We'll just look at it, not discuss it.
[Ron Giovino]: Right, we can't discuss it.
[Jean Zotter]: I tried to move our data slides into Google slides and it changed everything.
[Ron Giovino]: Well, and the other point, Jean, too, is I don't really, the presentation I'm more concerned about is for the public meeting. But if we're just in this meeting and you pull up your information for the committee, I think that's okay. You know, they want a visual and I'll have some visual stuff, but I think the most important things are the, you know, what we were looking at, your demographics, Eunice's historical data, a bit from Milva, and then we show the pros and cons and what we voted on.
[Milva McDonald]: I think it's... And then we'll develop the PowerPoint.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay.
[Milva McDonald]: So we have one minute. Sorry.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay. So public. Let me just get open the public. Is anybody here? No.
[Jean Zotter]: Bill is here.
[Ron Giovino]: Okay.
[Jean Zotter]: You may not want to speak.
[Ron Giovino]: Bill, you there?
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, can you hear me?
[Bill Giglio]: Okay. Yeah. Okay, so I just have one question, and this is maybe out of you guys' jurisdiction. If you guys, let's just say we went with more representatives, whether it's ward or at large, who decides to pay for them? Do they make their own pay?
[Jean Zotter]: No.
[Bill Giglio]: I don't know. That's a long time.
[Milva McDonald]: That's a question we'll have to look into.
[Bill Giglio]: Yeah, no, I just curious, because I know like Malden, representative only gets like 14,000, I think ours gets 30,000. And if we add more, is it going to be at that 30,000 level? Or? Oh, you know, that's my question.
[Eunice Browne]: Yeah. Excellent question.
[Bill Giglio]: You know, because that's, you know, if each ward is getting like, I know, like, I've checked in mall and their ward representatives in there at large, they all get the same, which is I think, Yeah, I mean, it's either like 14 or 17 or something like that. Yeah, it's very like, it's almost, it's almost half what we get. So I was just curious if we're adding more, are we going to that, to that level?
[Ron Giovino]: Well, that's actually a valid con.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, we don't, we don't know.
[Ron Giovino]: Well, I don't know if it's, it's not, I feel the answer to your question. It's not in this subcommittee's role and we don't set budgets or dollars as a, as Milva's committee does of the whole. So I would say no. Okay.
[Milva McDonald]: I don't know that our committee does either.
[Ron Giovino]: Yeah, no, I don't think we can change salaries or things like that. I hope not. Good question though.
[Bill Giglio]: All right. Thank you very much. And thank you guys again for all you're doing. Thanks, Bill.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Appreciate it.
[Ron Giovino]: All right. It's one pass. So we got to pay Nova overtime now again. You get a full hour. You get a full hour. All right. Thank you all. I'll be in touch this weekend.
[Jean Zotter]: Okay. All right.
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