[Jennifer Keenan]: Good evening, everybody. This is the Medford Historical Commission. Today is Monday, January 13th. We have a full agenda tonight, so I will read our statement here that we are required to read for a Zoom meeting, and then we will get started. Pursuant to the Chapter 20 of the Acts of 2021, this meeting of the City of Medford Historical Commission will be conducted via remote means. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so by using the Zoom link provided for in the agenda. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted and public participation in any public hearing during this meeting shall be by remote means only. Okay, so we're going to get started tonight. We have several cases that we're going to accept applications on and a few that we're going to determine significance on. These are for the demolition ordinance. So I'd just like to remind everybody what we're doing tonight. We're going to accept applications for either partial or total demolition of properties. And then for a few that we had a heads up on, we will actually go ahead and determine historical significance tonight as well. And to remind folks that are watching what that means as it pertains to historical significance, that means that the property is either associated, importantly associated with one or more historic persons or events, or with the broad architectural, cultural, political, economic, or social history of the city or the Commonwealth, or that it is historically or architecturally important in terms of period, style, method of building construction, or association with an important architect or builder, either by itself or in a context of buildings. And as a reminder, I like to let everybody to remind folks that we do not and will not consider the building's condition or any safety issues when it comes to determine whether anything is significant or future steps would be preferably preserved. Only the building commissioner can determine and properly address any safety issues in that respect. So for tonight, we're going to start off with 140 Summer Street. Commissioners, there's a small typo on our agenda. We're actually going to accept or, you know, review the application and accept the application first and assuming that we are okay to accept that application. We do have a form B on file for this property, so we will go ahead and determine significance. So if somebody would like to make a motion for the application, we will start with that.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: I'll move to accept the application. I will move to second as to form.
[Jennifer Keenan]: OK, Kit and Ed, thank you so much. So we have a motion on the table to accept the application for demolition for 140 Summit Street that has been seconded. I will go around for a roll call vote as I see folks on my screen. Ryan. Yes. Kit. Yes. Peter.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Ed.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes, as to form.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And Doug.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay. So the motion is accepted. Five zero five. Are we six one, two, three, four, five. Thank you. Okay. Okay. So now let's move on to the significance discussion for one 40 summer street. If somebody would like to make, to make a motion and open the conversation, I am ready.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: move to find 140 Summer Street historically significant.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay. Is there a second?
[Doug Carr]: I'll take it.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, Peter, I'll take you. Thank you. Okay, Ryan, if you'd like to jump off the discussions, that would be great.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Sure. This is a pre-1875 building. And as we know, there's probably less than 3,000 pre-1900 buildings, and there's probably half of that are pre-1875. It's a rare and diminishing type of building. It seems to be in a fair condition. Fair to good condition, I guess John put good, but I would more estimate this to be a fair condition house in terms of its integrity. But I think it's important in terms of its architectural style, its method of building construction, and its period.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, thank you so much. Peter, I'll come to you next.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: Agreed, and I think it's association with the shipbuilding industry that it was owned, the property was probably owned by Curtis and shipbuilders turned carpenters. most likely built it. It does seem to have some of its details still in existence, although it's also been changed. So I think it's worth a second look or a look, just a pause to make sure. Also, I think it does kind of fit in with the fabric of this part of the street. And some of the other properties have been adapted for new uses. And I think this one could be as well rather than total demolition. So I think it's worth a pause.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, thank you so much. Kit, I'll come to you next.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. In reading the application, there were some questions, which I think maybe at this stage are not determinative, I think you have to consider. One is, again, that if the interior ceilings are that low, whether or not you have preservation, you're going to have major work done. We're beyond the demolition phase. The only question is, can we do a restoration? The other question I have, and I just didn't get a clear answer to that, is looking at the plan and the proposed subdivision. Is this the one with the garage in back?
[Jennifer Keenan]: It does have a garage in the back, from my understanding. And yes, I believe the main driver for this is the low ceiling. They're lower than seven feet. And I will like to point out that the two houses to the right of this one, if you're staring at the front door, the one immediately to the right and then two doors down, both of those have been significantly rehabbed. They were under, well, the farther one came before us, and if I remember correctly, the one immediately to the right was not significant, but if I remember correctly, And I think, you know, if you look at both of those, in my opinion, the builder did a nice job to kind of honor the buildings that were there and the streetscape. But obviously, you know, we're looking at this case tonight. But Ryan, there is a garage in the back of this one, correct?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yep. Yeah.
[Jennifer Keenan]: But is it a garage or is it a carriage house?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I think it's sort of a late 19th century barn. I don't think it's a full-blown carriage house, but I do think it was some sort of accessory use building, could have been a workshop. It's definitely there by 1903, so it's right on the cusp. It seems to have been labeled as like a three stall auto barn in the 1936 Sanborn. So, you know, it had mixed use.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: And do we know what the plan is for that structure?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I think the plan for the site is total demo.
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: But if you scroll down in the the demolition application, there is a plan.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, there are some plans there.
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: You have to scroll all the way down.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Kate, did you have anything you wanted to add?
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I would just add that I was really struck by the ties with the shipbuilding history of Medford as well. And actually the demolition application kind of made me smile because pretty much every house, every building in Medford that's over 75 years old does not meet code. So I understand if that was the reason why everything, we approved every demolition permit in Medford, there'd be nothing left.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, I'm kind of curious as to why the ceilings are so low on this. On the outside, it's a narrow, tall house, which is typical of the Italian style, but the low ceilings are something else. So maybe there's just some sort of infill there. I don't know. Or it just could be an earlier building that's had its roofline raised, and that what we're looking at is something a little bit earlier. though.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Doug, do you have anything you want to add?
[Doug Carr]: Yeah, I just, I'm shocked that they could have existing ceilings below seven feet. I mean, that's obviously barely, I mean, it's supposed to be seven six for modern day code, but that's not even, let's forget about the technicalities, just the comfort of living there is a very big challenge, obviously, for something that low. You can literally bang your head if you just stand up and raise your hands. It's just crazy. I'm okay with a pause, but I'm skeptical about this, because I just don't see it as being part of any kind of district of any kind. And the building, I think it has a decent integrity, but it's obviously got some big challenges. I'd have to think about it some more and really look at the plans that they're proposing now too, which you said is a complete demo, right?
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it is. Also, I'd just like to say, if they're saying that these ceilings are seven feet, I have to view that statement with a little bit of skepticism because As an architect who's renovated a lot of houses like this, and I look at this facade, and I see the distance of the number of clabbards from floor to floor, Maybe on the third floor, there isn't much headroom. But when I look at this, I find it hard to believe that the ceilings are only seven feet. It's possible that there are multiple layers of drop ceilings or something. But when I look at this, I mean, you can see that there's quite a distance between the head of the first story windows and the sill of the second story windows. It looks pretty standard to me. So I don't know. I'm skeptical, but anyway.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Well, another reason to pause. One thing which strikes me, and I don't mean, I'm not suggesting there's an integrity problem, is it seems that this house has fallen into absentee family ownership so that I'm not sure necessarily that what we're hearing from the owner of record is necessarily anything he's actually familiar with.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, that I don't know. I mean, I know we don't typically kind of talk about, you know, who's there and family and, you know, what, what they're, you know, what's going on, whether it's rented or not, but yeah. Yeah.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Based on the Form B, this came into family hands. He's a family at this point.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay. Does anybody else have any comments about this one before we take a vote for significance? Anything else to discuss? I guess depending on the outcome of the vote, something we could potentially request is a walkthrough if it goes to the next step. So you could, I don't know that they'll agree, but we could certainly request it if that's something that would be important to the board. So just keep that in mind. Okay. All right. So for 140 Summer Street, unless anybody else has any further comments, I'm not seeing anything. Okay. At 140 Summer Street, we have a motion on the table to find for significance that has been seconded. I will go around for a roll call vote as I see people on my screen. Ryan.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Peter.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Kit. Sorry, yes. Ed.
[Doug Carr]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And Doug.
[Doug Carr]: Yes for now.
[Jennifer Keenan]: OK. OK. Okay, so for 140 Summer Street, next month we will hold a preferably preserved hearing. We will work with the property owner to get the proper notices out in advance of our meeting, which will be on February 10th. Okay, moving on to our next item agenda. We have 31 Wilson Street. This one is also receiving a demolition application and then assuming we're okay with the application submitted. we will determine significance as well. If someone would like to make a motion for the application on this one.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Move to accept the application as to form.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thank you, Ed.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Second.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thank you, Ryan. Okay, motion to accept the application for demolition for 31 Wilson Street has been made and seconded. Ryan? Yes. Peter?
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Kit? Yes. Ed? Ed?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thank you. And Doug? Yes. Thank you. OK, so the application is accepted 5-0. And again, we'll determine significance on this one since we had a heads up and we have a form B ready. So I'll take a motion for significance or not when someone is ready.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Motion for significance for 31 Wilson Street.
[Jennifer Keenan]: OK, thank you, Ryan. Is there a second?
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: I'll second.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay. All right, Ryan, if you want, I'd like to jump off the discussion again on this one for 31 Wilson Street.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Sure. Fulton Heights is filled with these, a fair number of these little tiny one, one and a half story buildings. And they're often put on postage stamp style lots. And in the case of this building, it's actually three lots, which the house is located to one side. And there's a large garage in the back, which is typical because most of the development that happened during this time period, the early 20th century, was the time where autos were making their appearance for virtually everybody, not just the wealthy. What I was particularly fascinated by was the fact that this house virtually maintains A fair amount of its integrity, both inside and out, you know, there are some changes like there's cement fiber board siding, but as we've seen for projects that remove that oftentimes the original materials are underneath and just can easily be restored. you know, the windows are all there with the trim, and then if you look at real estate photos on the inside, the house actually maintains a lot of its original character in there as well. And even though there's a plan for demolition, I think this particular project can warrant a pause because there is a possibility that maybe we can convince and influence new construction while allowing the existing house maybe to maintain. Because we are losing these houses in vast numbers because they are often on larger lots or can be combined with other lots. And perhaps it might be wise to save a few, especially those that are in fairly good condition.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Great. Thank you, Ryan. Okay, I'll go to you next.
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was really struck with the. Well, first of all, I think the Fulton Heights neighborhood is just a sort of a fascinating rabbit Warren, and, and it seems to me that in terms of keeping intact, kind of a community of houses. I don't know. I haven't been by this particular one. But it's still a very cohesive streetscape. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is, with this particular house, I was really struck with the history of the schoolhouse. And I was sort of thinking, how many of those are there around in Medford? Small schoolhouses, and I can't think of any. Now, I realize that this is a bit of its history that needs to be verified. But Ryan, are there any sort of smaller existing schoolhouses?
[Jennifer Keenan]: Well, the one on Summer Street that got developed a couple of years ago, we predicted that might have been a schoolhouse.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: yeah where uh... we're not sure and i just uh... there's like a disconnect i still need to go back to city hall and uh... check the older financial records to see who the city who paid for that building and that will tell us so somewhere on summer street i don't john and i were pretty confident after we saw the interior demolition of summer street that it wasn't well that wasn't the schoolhouse in action wasn't there but somewhere on summer street is a there is an earlier 1820s, 1830s wooden schoolhouse building. And this particular building, if it were a schoolhouse, it would have been removed from another community, but it also would be extremely, extremely rare to have some sort of wooden frame schoolhouse building even standing from an earlier period. I mean, it has the has the right window arrangements on the outside as like a one or two room schoolhouse. But, you know, the interior floor plan based on the photos is a little bit different than that. So but I mean, we can always if we do a walkthrough, get a sense based on looking at it.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Great. Peter, anything to add?
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: Oh, no, I think it's a it's an interesting little house. And I will I too was struck by the the chain of ownership, I guess. And, you know, being the consistent chain of ownership and the schoolhouse thing, although I guess that's speculation, but on the part of the owner, but I also think like due to the large lot, maybe if the lot was developed creatively, this is sort of echoing what Ryan said that maybe it could be incorporated. I mean, you could add dormers to it or whatever, but as part of a larger build out, that's it.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Ed, anything to add on this one?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Again, it's just looking at clearly the plan seems to be to cut it back into two lots again. And what happens to the garage? Again, what looks like a probably not particularly significant garage, but they got the garage over the lot line. Is that going with it? I mean, is that planned to be demolished with it?
[Jennifer Keenan]: Do we have confirmation of that Ryan? I would imagine it's everything.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, it's it's the notice of intent says it's everything, but let me just look real quick at the proposed plans. I'm pretty certain that the house is not. They're going to like center the house.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I'm sure they have to with this setbacks and zoning now. Yeah.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: So they're going to read a portion of the property?
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah. Three lots side by side. So I would imagine whatever they put there new, they're going to have to center and make a driveway and a garage.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah. So they have, it's three lots, but they're going to subdivide it into two lots. So they'll have two houses, one next to the other on both the garage and the houses to be raised. But maybe we can, convince them just to build, you know, if they raise a garage, maybe convince them to build just one house and leave the other house alone, you know.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Doug, anything to add on this one?
[Doug Carr]: I guess I'm kind of highly skeptical that this site can be saved. I'm willing to pause here and vote to kind of just take a fresh look at it. But this house just doesn't, I mean, it doesn't look like if you did what you need to make it the size space of living that you would want for. a property of this scale, I don't think there'd be much left of the house when we're done, whether you raise the roof. It's just an odd little property. I don't know how else to say it. But I'm willing to take a look at it because I haven't spent any time obviously with the site plan and I don't know if the owner is willing to engage us. But if they're not, I'd hesitate to take it much further because I just don't see it. It seems like there's a lot to do here. It's almost like starting over no matter what you do.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I mean, there is something to be said about the very real possibility that Medford won't have any, I guess, starter homes, for lack of a better term. I mean, not every building needs to be built out to the maximum, in my opinion, especially given that if they're subdividing the lot and they're able to build a whole second home, a new construction home, you've done both. You've kept both the starter home and you've gotten a new construction home on the site. Now, whether or not that meets the owner's ability to make a profit or not is something that he's going to have to tell us. But, you know, just something to toy around with. Not every building, in my opinion, needs to be built because not everybody's going to be able to afford that large
[Jennifer Keenan]: luxurious home i guess well i think on this one too kind of coming back to what kit said about the neighborhood um and i think ryan even what you said about you know it's this little bungalow up at the top of the hill and you know i think on this one i i don't want to say more so than others but i think just given the the character of the Fulton Heights neighborhood, I personally would be curious to hear from the neighbors, which would come with, you know, preferably preserved hearing and public notice.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah. And also after February, ADUs, I mean, we can already build ADUs here in Medford, but ADUs will become infinitely easier by right. So, and they could put a small up to 900 square feet dwelling unit on, on both of the houses, right? So even the new construction.
[Jennifer Keenan]: No, well, it can't be more than it's up to 900 square feet, but 50% of the main house. So if this existing house stays, it can't be bigger than 50% of that house. So I'm actually getting, I'm having a class next month. So I'll have all kinds of information to share on that. Okay. The state's supposed to come out with the new details on February 1st.
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: Sweet.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, anything else to discuss on this one before we vote for significance? Okay, so for 31 Wilson Street, we have a motion that's been seconded to find for historical significance. Roll call vote. Ryan. Yes. Peter.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Kit. Yes. Ed.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes, again.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Doug.
[Doug Carr]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, so this one is significant, so we will have a preferably preserved hearing for that one next month as well.
[Doug Carr]: Jen, do you think the owners will engage us in the time period between this meeting and the next?
[Jennifer Keenan]: For a walkthrough?
[Doug Carr]: Just to look at the site, to pause the process. I love the walkthrough too.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, I'll certainly, I'm certainly happy to reach out to the owners of Wilson and Summer Street to see if they would allow us to do a walkthrough and then I can circle back with everybody on a date and time.
[Unidentified]: Okay.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And then if you have specific questions on either property, send them to me and I'll be happy to, you know, ask the commissioner, ask the property owners those questions in advance of the next hearing as well. And certainly, I'm sure they'll be there as well. Okay. We have two applications that are on the agenda that we have to accept next, plus a third. I'm not sure if you guys all saw my email. We did get a late arrival application that is on here officially. Let's just see if we can take all three and then we can get the process started for these folks. And we did not have enough heads up on these three to determine significance tonight. We have to still have our form Bs ordered and delivered. So, yes. Oh my God, I can't believe I skipped right over that. I'm so sorry. Apologies, apologies. Okay, next up for Grove Street. We will be receiving a demolition application on this one. And then assuming that's accepted, determining significance. Just a little background on this one. They have been rehabbing this property. Um, we, uh, you know, permit came through, we approved, they were doing some small dormers up on the third floor. Um, and then right after Thanksgiving, uh, the porches got ripped off without approval. Um, so this project has been stopped and they are coming before us now for demolition review. Um, so commissioners, if somebody would like to make a motion on this one, we can get started.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: I will move to accept the application as to form.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thank you, Ed. Is there a second? I'll second.
[Unidentified]: I'll take hit.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thank you. Okay, motion to accept the application for demolition for 4 Grove Street. Ryan?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Peter? Yes. Kit? Yes. Ed?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes, as to form.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And Doug?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, thank you. Okay, so now for significance for Grove Street, if somebody would like to make a motion on that one.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Move for significance.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thank you, Ryan. Is there a second?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: I'll second.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thank you, Ed. Okay, Ryan.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I think it's similar to the property that we had at 28 Grove Street. It's associated with George Woodland, developer from Melrose. He was also a prolific builder of most of these houses. They all share, in this immediate vicinity, they all share sort of the same form and style and plan. It's all related to this little organization called the West Medford Real Estate Trust. It's all laid out on Brooks family land over the early 20th century. And I think both the immediate neighborhood and the larger development are still coherent. So I think it's important to preserve as much of that as possible. So I am for significance.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thank you, Ryan. Ed, anything to add on this?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: No. Did you say that we had voted on this one before? No.
[Jennifer Keenan]: We didn't vote on it. It came through the permitting and we approved it based on the plans that they had submitted, which did not include any porch alterations.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: All right. So there has not been a significance vote yet?
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: Correct.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: At any point? Correct. OK. Yeah.
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: So we're finding the entire building Significant or the porch, the entire building?
[Jennifer Keenan]: The whole house. Yeah, this is at the corner of Grove and High Street, kind of like a cornerstone property. Even more so now they've taken out all the shrubs that were along the corner and trimmed up the tree. So before it was really difficult to see the house and now you can really see it. I drive by it multiple times a day on my way home. And yeah, right now the porch is, Looking pretty sad. All the columns are gone and the stone foundation is gone and there's some terrible plastic lattice around the bottom.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: point of clarification?
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yes.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I think just it's important to point out for the benefit of anybody watching and the applicants that when we review these projects for when they have been or when we deal with unauthorized demolitions, we review the pre-construction condition for significance and then we take into account the if it is a significant building. We take into account its current condition a little bit more closely when we deal with integrity, but we oftentimes know what buildings look like and we'll certainly take that into consideration when it's been removed.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And just for this one, it's hard to see it on Google Earth. And even when the property was sold, because the trees and the shrubs were all kind of in front of it. So it was really hard to see kind of that beautiful detail on the porch as it was before it was all ripped down. So.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: I will say the Form B has some good side-by-side photos of it, you know, in its original, quote-unquote, original state. And after the reconstruction of the new porches, I didn't realize that it had those current photos, but I'm looking at them now. They do tell a tale.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, and the dormers on the side, that little shed dormer, You know, they've changed some of the windows and things in the front one. And on the dormers themselves, like the whole house is stucco, and the dormers have this kind of that vertical siding that everybody's using these days. So it doesn't really match, but they put the little shed dormers on both sides of the property. Peter, did you have anything else to add on this one? No, not really. Kit?
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: Nope. Doug?
[Doug Carr]: No, it's an unfortunate situation, obviously.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay. All right, then we have a motion for significance on the table for 4 Grove Street that has been seconded. I will go around for a roll call vote. Ryan? Yes. Peter. Yes. Kit. Yes. Ed.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And Doug.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay. So significance on this one, five zero. So we will have a preferably preserved hearing for this one next month as well. Okay, so now we will move on to the applications that we are accepting for 26 Rockwell and 76 Court Street. And then as I mentioned in my email that I sent out about 640, we did receive an application for 115 Emerald Street. So let's start with 26 Rockwell. If somebody would like to make a motion on this one or not, or pass on review.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I motion that the application is complete and we accept it.
[Jennifer Keenan]: OK, thank you, Ryan. Second. OK, motion to accept the application for 26 Rockwell Ave has been seconded. Ryan, yes. Peter, yes. Kit, yes. Ed.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes, as before.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And Doug, yes. Okay, great. So that one, we will order a form B on and do significance, have significance discussion on that next month. Next up, we have 76 Court Street, same. We are accepting the application. Again, this was another one that had unauthorized demolition. The project was stopped right before Christmas. There's a good chunk of this house gone. I don't know, Ryan, you put those pictures in the folder as well as the ones we got from the applicant. If not, we have them. I did not. OK, well, we have them. But I will take a motion on this one as well when someone's ready.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Motion to accept the application.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: Okay, pointed question.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yes, Peter.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: I noticed on the intent to demolish form. They don't have partial or total circled, but it says see addendum a and b and plans attached. I didn't really have time to know what that meant. Is it for total demo?
[Jennifer Keenan]: No, it's partial. It's the rear half of the house. I think they're trying to make two units there.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, there's a small addition that they removed, but the real reason why this project is being reviewed is because they have gone beyond the scope of their permit and removed far more than was approved to do work, basically. So.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, the upper story of the upper rear of the roof is completely gone.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: Okay, thank you.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Well, I'll drop the photos in the folder that we have so you guys can see it in its current state or take a drive by if you get a chance. Okay, so there's a motion that was submitted by Ryan to accept the application for 76 court. Is there a second?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes, it is to form.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, thank you, Ed. Okay, motion to accept the application for 76 Court Street. Ryan? Yes. Peter?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Kit? Yes. Ed?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes as to former.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And Doug?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, thank you. Okay, and then last up to receive the application for demolition is 115 Emerald Street. And I will take a motion from somebody when you're ready.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: move to accept the application.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, thanks, Ryan.
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: I'll second.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thanks, Kit. Okay, motion to accept the application for 115 Emerald Street. Ryan? Yes. Peter?
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Kit? Yes. Ed?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: I'm almost inclined to question whether it's complete, but I'll say yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, and Doug.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: It should, I think it really was Ed, so that we have photos of all four sides, the site plan, the application and plans. Okay.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: Who moved and seconded on that one?
[Jennifer Keenan]: It was Ryan made the motion and Kit seconded it.
[Unidentified]: Okay.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And it was a five zero.
[Unidentified]: Okay.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Pass, okay. Okay, I think, unless there's something else that I don't know about, that is all of our casework for tonight. So next month we will have three preferably preserved hearings and three significance hearings, and then any new applications that come in. So pack a cooler, it might be a long night. Um, okay. Ryan, do you have anything else before we move on to the cemetery?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, just so folks know, we're preemptively ordering an MHC Form B for 38 Spring Street. That's why it's on the agenda. Received a bunch of inquiries on it. It's not a large lot. It's fairly good condition in terms of integrity, but most people probably think it needs work. So check out the real estate photos if you want to take a gander at it. And then there was another building on 19 Curtis Street 19th century building that we're is being eyed for review. So I had john do forms, but he's not going to be able to get to them until that and Spring Street until March meeting. So we're prioritizing those that are coming up for demo first. So but in terms of our budget will be pretty good. So even if we spend four forms a month until June, then we'll be good in terms of our spending our budget down. So great.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, and I think we had a heads up on some of these tonight, so we were able to do significance in addition to taking the application, which I think is obviously a great time saver for folks. So anytime we can get things ordered and kind of shave some time off of the timeline, we are happy to do that, as long as we have the Form B.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, and I do think that we, we, it's further down the list but if we do need to discuss 27 Almond Street, just to see if there's anything we want to do there too as well. Okay, but I'll, I'll save that for after the cemetery.
[Jennifer Keenan]: All right, go for it. Okay.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I've been working with the cemetery trustees and Fannin Lehner, who is the consultant that we hired collectively to do the cemetery headstone assessment for the relocated Cross Street Cemetery at Oak Grove. So Fan and Lehner came back with a pretty detailed report, a wonderful set of documents that's going to be very easy to convert over to scope for bidding. And their number, bottom line, was about $70,000 for the 100 or so stones that need work in that cemetery. It complicates the way that the cemetery was moved and the headstones set, complicates that work and accounts for a bit of its costs. Normally it's actually probably cheaper to restore stones, but all of the headstones, except for the biggest monuments, are all set in a concrete base. And so we have to re-anchor the existing stones in and there's no way to pull them out. You know, it is what it is. I'm also working with a mason to get a cost estimate for the wall. He didn't believe that it was in bad condition. He thought that it just needed some very minor repointing and a lot of organic growth removed, because that is a very wet area. But once that's done, it should be in relatively good condition. he was talking with his metal fabricator to reproduce the other gate that's missing from the cemetery. So we'll have two gates and it'll be all painted and the cemetery will be back in a nice condition at the end of the project we are right is this cpc yeah i think it will be cpc funding uh that will be necessary but um in the interim between now and then i am trying to reach out to veronica shaw from the uh veterans group to try to get some veterans funding to restore the veteran stones first. And I was going to try to partner that with some CPC small grant funding and perhaps a grant from freedoms way who funded the part of the assessment. So we're trying to do that as both a pilot project to see how the restoration work will progress and how tough it's going to be, but also to tie us over for the duration until we can apply for CPC funding next fall. Unless Doug thinks that the CPC might entertain an off-season application, but I don't I don't think so because there's no pressing need for it other than maybe just getting the work done.
[Doug Carr]: No, I think it really has to be an emergency. I don't know if this would qualify. How much is it, Ryan?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: It's $70,000 for the stones, but it'd probably be around $100,000 all told. If we do it in one shot, $100,000, we could phase it out over two years. The consultants can only do so much work themselves, too. It's weather dependent, and some of the stuff takes two, three Applications before it's ready for final, like, you know, to put the stone actually back together. So, uh, you know.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Sort of that to me is I mean, how. How long will, you know, once we get approval and funding, how long does this work really take? Because it looks like it's a fair amount.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, I think I mean it's it's probably two phases. I mean, we could probably stretch it out for three, but I think two is realistic. We are meeting the city is trying to tie this into a request for funding for another project that we're working on. And we're hopeful that if the city, we're hopeful that the state or other entities might pitch in, and that might expedite work. And the consultants, meaning Finn and Lehner, are mulling over the idea that they might be able to express this work by working with some of the people that are in their field together as a collaborative venture. a handful of people that do this work, but they might be willing to partner. They all share the same methodologies and the same methods, so they might be willing to partner to get this project done all at once. And it may be timely, we don't know, but we definitely want to get it done over the next year or two. So it just, you know, it's, it's a little bit disappointing because it took the city nearly six or eight months once we had the grants to set up the proper accounting so that we could get going. So I probably could have gotten CPC funding, but I just, uh, I think, you know, it's fine. It'll just, this project will move right along with the other project that it's related to.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: So, so, so we're talking 25 and 26 in all likelihood. Yep.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: And we have the cemetery trustees to help us. I think there's a three-person trustee board plus Steve Brogan, who's the caretaker on site and the, I forget his proper term. I guess he's the cemetery custodian is not the right word. Oh, it escapes me, but he's he's the boots on the ground guy. So, um, you know, I, I think they're called a curator for this purpose. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're very, they're, they're pleased that we have this scope of work. So now we just need to keep moving forward. Um, so yeah, if you guys want to review the report, it's in there. Um, you know, it's, uh, it's. just so you guys know, the people that do the restoration work will take photos of every stone that they work on both before and after. So that's why they didn't document, photo document every stone. I do have photo documentation for every stone. So I kind of did that work ahead of time, but that's why it's lacking in photographs. It's just representatives just for the people's understanding of the scope of work.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Again, this is, not intended to be anything other than, again, a point of information. How many of the stones there have families which are still traceable or known?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: That are living here?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: At least that they saw the picture, at least they'd have somebody to send the picture to.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I mean, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I know people do visit the stones. I've seen, I know directly that there are at least two people whose, it's a husband and wife team who have relatives buried in the cemetery. Other people have visited the stones because they leave little pebbles on top of the stone, which is a surefire indicator that people have been there. I have living descendants. I am a living descendant of some of those people that are in that cemetery. So it's one of the reasons why I started the project. So, you know, there are people who are interested on reading through Reddit. Not that Reddit's a credible source, but reading through Reddit, at least one person said that they were related to people buried in Cross Street Cemetery. I don't know. They certainly don't know how recent, but there are definitely descendants around. Any other questions? OK, so that's that. I guess I'll. Jen, you're muted.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And move on to Cross Street.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, the other one. Yeah, so we had the other one session just so everybody's aware. Just in case there's any confusion on that, because we don't need to. The mayor sent out a press release on Thursday, letting the general public know that we, um, we meaning the public archaeological laboratory, the archaeologists, conducted an archaeological dig on a 150-foot trench in the former Cross Street Cemetery parcel opposite City Hall. And we, I think it's pretty clear that there were items that were found there, both artifacts and skeletal remains, and that the whole parcel will need to be checked. for additional burials. I think what was the specifics, I can't really talk much about the specifics, but it was pretty intense to see that site open. And so based on what we found in the ground there is probably a, On a realistic schedule, probably that project will probably occupy the next three years of our time. We have the city's complete attention and the city will hopefully take the charge and take designate staff support to keep that project moving right along. But there's gonna be a really intense project there. And I think there's, that we're going to learn some things. And I think the community's going to have to sort of reckon with its past a little bit there, so.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Ryan, I don't know if you can answer this, but will they just take it in sections as they clear the site? If you can't answer that, that's OK.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, I think it really depends on the methodology for recovery, but I think he the I think they'll probably end up given the so the the site is covered with. you have the historic grade, and then there's two layers of 12 inches of sand, and then there's the parking lot asphalt that's on top of it, another six inches or so. And there's a ton of clearing that needs to take place in order to conduct an archaeological dig there. So I think that it probably would be the most prudent use of funding to just clear the whole site down to historic grade and then just check what needs to be checked in a section at a time. The actual work on site will probably take up to four months, depending on how well weather is and cooperates. But then there's a lot of testing. Once stuff comes out of the ground, there's laboratory work. there may be anthropological investigation, and then there is the procedure on what happens to what we pull out of the ground and where it goes after the fact.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And that has not been determined yet.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: It hasn't, but it will. So the PAL will be finishing their report based on the one trench that we dug. And they will take that information and send it to the state. The state will lay out parameters for what needs to happen to that site. And the city will have to work with a series of stakeholders to bring them all to the table. And we'll all have to collectively discuss the next steps and go from there. There'll be a lot of discussion going on because there's both the city, the state, MassDOT. And for all intents and purposes, just so everybody's aware, state funding may be at play here to help with this project. But also, there are environmental reviews and environmental permitting that would be necessary. MHC, meaning the Massachusetts Historical Commission would have review over impacts to historic resources at that time as part of the section 106 reviews. And this information would have come to light then. So we are just saving ourselves and the city almost a year of time by working on this project ahead of that review, potential review, right? So it'll all be handled with the project that's planned for there. So-
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: It seems there are two pieces, which I would be somewhat concerned about. One is bluntly money, because this is not going to be cheap. This is not going to be cheap. And two, it's the context of the RFPs for the redevelopment of that area, which if it's city property, again, becomes at least a short, both short and long term money, a money issue of when is development going to, how much, How much will this delay perspective development of what looks like a parking lot to those who didn't live in the city before 1980?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, and I can't speak for the timeline for development, but I mean, I know that's most likely a ways off, but you know, I think it's important that the, you know, the site be checked and that we acknowledge what happened, happened and correct it.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: I think it's, you know, we can, we can, I, I have no, no, I, I, I have no qualms with that. I'm not the guy who's going to have the qualms.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I do believe that money, uh, you know, money will be an issue. Uh, hopefully the, the, there'll be a multitude of funding sources that might help with this project.
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: So Ryan, just, um, can you refresh us on, I mean, there's the area of the cemetery that's located where this city hall, that parking lot is now. But how far did the Cross Street Cemetery extend under what is now 93?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: So the property line extends over to the northbound side Route 60 exit ramp on the opposite side of the highway. So it's under the entire embankment.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: So that could be really complicated.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I have the map. Can I share my screen? Am I allowed to share my screen?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, I think it's fair.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Let me show it.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: There's no proprietary information that's not available to the general public there.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Can you guys see that? And then, so this is the spot right now that we can access. So they're only gonna go as far, they're not going past this area, right?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, there's gonna be some discussion with MassDOT because- To go a little farther. Yeah, invariably there'll be things that cross the line there. So I, there'll need to be some cooperation, but how much is up in the air? So, yeah, so just, you know, So, can you scroll up and show the history?
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, hold on. Let me share my screen.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I do just think it's important that people understand that the site around City Hall is virtually unrecognizable to what it was in the. in the early 20th century. So this is a view of the site, and the railroad is to the right, and the City Hall, the corners of City Hall are where they are. And that, no, that's actually the Washington School on Cross Street. It's down below where the two men are standing, those are the corners of City Hall. They're actually, they're staking out the corners of City Hall on that site.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And so then this is the parking lot right here.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: So yeah.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Fascinating. Yeah. Well, thank you for all your hard work on that, Ryan.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: The city's, I think, going to keep moving on it. They're dedicated to moving the project forward. So we will see.
[Doug Carr]: Brian, is it worth mentioning that this is not the city of Medford's error? I mean, it was the state, right? I mean, I think the state should pay for the mistake even if it's 70 years later. I don't know why the city of Medford should have to spend a whole lot of money uncovering this. Once we figure out the scope of the cost of this, it's gonna go on forever. It's gonna cost a fortune to do this.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: So I am of the opinion rather than In looking back, I think the correct thing to say is that the methodologies that were conducted in the middle of the 19th, middle of the 20th century, even even You know, even for cemetery removals are vastly different than what they are today. They there's no There were no major environmental reviews. There's no reviews for historic resources during that time period of highway construction. And I think things have changed quite a bit in the 70 or so years that we have been you know, working on historic preservation and making it an important part of both state and federal projects. So I don't think it's fair to say or blame the state. I think the important thing here is to acknowledge that what's there is there and that we just need to move forward. And I would, you know, I would hope that maybe the state would contribute given that they did work on it, but there's no guarantee that they will. But I mean, when the time comes and the formal request is made, it would be great to call your local politicians and put in a good word that we need this funding. There will need to be state approval for additional work, so it will hit the legislature. So that will be the time to advocate.
[Jennifer Keenan]: All right, anything else on this topic? Otherwise, we'll move on. Okay, moving on to old business, unless anybody else has anything that's new that I'm not aware of. Okay, moving on to old business. Preservation ordinance discussion, Ryan?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I would like to pull together a list. So I'd like to table this for next month. I did send out a little thing saying Jen Doherty from Mass Historical sent me a bunch of bylaws. I just want to take the time tonight to read through them, summarize them for the commission and go from there. And then I didn't hear back from the Reddings yet on meeting to review how well their ordinances are working, but there may be other communities that we want to reach out to.
[Jennifer Keenan]: We might wanna think about tabling this to March just because next month is gonna be chock full, but we can see if any, you know, what else comes in and then make a decision when we do the agenda.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, that sounds good. I think I'll send out between now and then just like a summary and we can really have a discussion. And actually, does it make sense to have, and this is just for like the whole commission poising, does it make sense to have like a separate meeting just to review the ordinances and then maybe review the ADU information? Because it should be out by then. So, and Jen, you should have something and maybe the guidelines.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, let's regroup on this when we are putting the agenda in and then we'll make the call when to do that and if to do it separately.
[Unidentified]: Okay.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Cool. Okay. Okay, so 27 Allmont is the only thing under demo delay right now. They have indicated that they want to wait out the delay unless anybody wants to try to reengage them between now and November.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I wonder if we want to maybe put some money into documentation. I don't know who would be doing documentation. Myron, when I last spoke with him back at the end of the year, he was quite busy. So maybe we can find maybe we can partner up with PAL or somebody else to do this type of work. Maybe sometimes John and Claire will find time for it. But I was just curious if we think that we should put some money into this project just to document it if we know it's coming down. Or do folks want to try to re-approach him about moving forward in some way? I'm assuming that he just doesn't want to save the building at all, so.
[Doug Carr]: Ryan, could you put a form B or something on the screen so we can get an image of what we're talking about? It's been a while since I thought about this one.
[Jennifer Keenan]: It's the blue house, right?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Hold on.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: I don't think he had, from talking to him, I don't think he had any, desire to engage with us at all. That was my feeling. Although he sort of hinted that he would, but kind of felt like he was just saying that to get out of the meeting.
[Doug Carr]: I know this is coming back to me. This is the one we had.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[Doug Carr]: Yeah.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: And he didn't, you know, I just didn't think he, he didn't really understand where we were coming from. I don't think so. I don't know.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: It's an early building, so I would like to see some documentation, especially if it's vacant. I'm assuming it's vacant. And especially if we can do some digging into this building. So why don't I maybe come up with, he's in it until November, so why don't I come up with a cost to spend and see if we can't get some documentation for this building, maybe started in April sometime, April, May.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, I think it would be good if we could, it's unfortunate that they won't engage with us because I think there is a way to blend old and new here. I mean, Sid seems to have figured out a way to blend old and new. And even like Nelson has, we've done some recent projects and It's just unfortunate that there is no, you know, they don't want to, but I guess that's their right, obviously, so.
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: It does feel like, though, I mean, for something like this, where it seems like it's just going to be leveled and there's no interest in trying to preserve any of it. I mean, we should have documentation and some sort of a, you know, a dictionary of the buildings that are just gone.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I mean, there's, you know, 10 months, right? So do, I mean, do we want to try for a historic district? I don't, I mean, they passed cell street. So that meaning city council passed cell street. So they've already got a precedent, but I don't know. I don't know whether this one would pass. It's a little bit of a harder sell. It's not, you know, it's by itself. I mean, it isn't really good condition, but it's also still by itself though. But I mean, I can start with documentation and see where we can go.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Who is running the district commission these days? Is it even possible to get this done?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I think it would be if they hire a consultant to just do the report, because we already have the form B. They just have to justify the boundaries, which is simply it's under delay. The owner's not willing to engage. And then it's up to the city council to see if they'll take it.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I mean, I feel like we should pass it along to the district commission and then they should look at it themselves and see if.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, I guess I can. I guess we can see if I can get on the agenda and say here's this building. If you want to proceed with a single house historic district, here's a good opportunity. We're going to move forward with documentation of the building as if it's coming down, but you can use that to justify further to save it. If it becomes important, OK.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's their that it's almost that that's their purview, not ours. And yeah.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I would say that I think we could probably sorry, Kit, we probably are on consensus that we would we would not we would support a historic district there if they want to move forward with it. But, you know, it is their it is their purview. So it kind of give them the
[Jennifer Keenan]: I mean, do we have, like, under the 18-month demo delay, I know one of the steps is, like, documentation and whatever. Is there an automatic, like, we're going to refer this to the district commission for a single house historic or a district to be created if something's under demo delay and the property owner is not willing to work with us?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I don't think it well. I think it depends on the case. I don't think it's automatic. If the property owner is not willing to work with us, I think we should make a conscious decision to advocate and say the moment that you say you're not going to, you're just going to sit on your hands. We're going to advocate for a local historic district to further, you know, slow this for the buildings that we, you know, if you, if it's preferably preserved and it's significant, then obviously we should probably advocate for that. But, uh, you know, I don't know, it really is on a case by case basis. In this case, I think that the house could be saved even, you know, and get the unit there and then some, so.
[Doug Carr]: I guess I disagree with the idea that if somebody, that every time somebody refuses to work with us, we try to impose a, to our district on the house. I don't feel that's the right approach. That makes that a tool, not really a strategic way of thinking about that in the city. I just don't think that's the right approach.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Right. And to build off of what Doug is saying, I think it's more important rather than to force somebody to work with us, to actually work on giving ourselves the tools necessary to help know basically give ourselves more tools so that we can work with the zoning board to give zoning relief for historic preservation projects. That's why that those changes are so important because we basically say okay yeah it's not feasible right now but now we we have this new ordinance that we passed that will help give the zoning relief to you so you can get the project on here and keep the existing house, provided you're willing to keep the existing house. You know, not every building is worthy of saving, you know, not every building can be saved, but we can try to do our best to kind of save enough of them that the Metro doesn't lose its historic charm.
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think just from, I mean, I agree with Doug and I also think there is, you know, the fact of the matter is we're the only ones who are having this conversation about this house. And insofar as the historic district commission is another body to have to have the conversation about the house feels like the right thing. I mean, it's like if there are such limited tools that we have in terms of preservation of these kinds of buildings, it seems like we should at least open the conversation to a broader constituency. I mean, whether the Historic District Commission decides to do anything or not, I mean, I doubt they would, but.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I feel like we should at least refer it to them and then, because, you know, Nobody from their commission comes to our meetings. I don't know how much they're paying attention to our agendas. So unless we share with them what's kind of happening, what we're seeing, I don't know how they're tackling their agendas, what their goals are every year, anything. I mean, I know that board's been in a little bit of a disarray for a while. So I would love, maybe this is an opportunity to have a working relationship with that board. And I mean, I'd love to see somebody kind of check in with us monthly, say, hey, what's going on? What do we need to be aware of? Where can we, is there anything that is of particular importance that we should start looking at?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, I think Jess from the same department as Dennis staffs their board. I would like to think there's some communication inter-office. So there should be a way to get information on the ins and outs of the board. But yes, I think it's good to have collaborative conversations and have them come talk to us, et cetera.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah.
[Denis MacDougall]: Actually, Ryan, just to jump in, Jess moved back to California, so Teresa is now staffing Historic District.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Nope. Awesome. All right. Well, then tomorrow I will reach out to Teresa and see if I can get on their agenda.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Do you know, Dennis, if they're having a meeting this month?
[Denis MacDougall]: Honestly, I don't know.
[Jennifer Keenan]: OK.
[Denis MacDougall]: I know she was talking to the new chair, so.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Who is the chair? Do you know?
[Denis MacDougall]: Honestly, I'm not 100% sure. She just said the new chair.
[Jennifer Keenan]: We'll follow up. No problem. We'll follow up on our end. Thank you. All right, Ryan, you can check in with Teresa on that one.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I will.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thank you. Hi, Doug. Nice to see you. Glad you got your Zoom working.
[SPEAKER_08]: It's my new laptop. Zoom didn't exist. I had to recreate Zoom from scratch.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Ryan, are there any more Form Bs we need to order? Do we need to? We're good? Okay.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: No, I think we're good. I think I'll spend like a budget of like $2,000 to $5,000 for the documentation effort and see where I get for that.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay. Maybe, does it make sense to put it out on like the preservation boards and see maybe there's somebody new out there that can help us?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Well, I'll reach out to... Maybe Eleni knows somebody too? Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, it's possible. I mean, I will... I will reach out and see about forms and other stuff, but there's always so many people that do the really in-depth stuff, like looking at nails and whatnot, and do it well. So we'll see about availability too as well.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: I don't see any meetings on the city calendar for this month or next month. historic district commission. That doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't one, but.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I don't know that they pre-populate a calendar like we do.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: I've seen them on there before. I've seen their meetings on the calendars before in previous years, but.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I mean, they might not show up till 48 hours before.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: No, usually they do a pretty good job. But yes, I think maybe one of the things that Teresa can work with them on is actually pre-populating their URLs so that they can meet on a monthly basis.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, maybe it's just because they haven't had that scheduling meeting yet.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah. We send our dates to Dennis so that it's on the calendar. Then they just have to link the agenda when they get it. But it's already there.
[Unidentified]: Right.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I don't know that every board and commission does that.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, they do have four new members.
[8Sqy8gyjolU_SPEAKER_08]: You may not know what's going on.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Well, yeah, I mean, it's just that it's a new year for them, that's all.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, permitting is moving along. I have a bunch of things on hold right now in our queue, just asking for elevations and confirmation of work. I'm sending those around to Peter, Doug, and Eleni as I get things that need kind of a cohesive discussion on. So that is kind of moving along there, nothing, really, nothing really new to report. Although, I guess my report is that, you know, there's a lot in our queue. So projects are definitely ramping up. So I'm taking that as a good sign for, you know, this year in terms of, you know, housing and renovations and people are just moving on with their lives and their projects. CPA, Thomas Brooks, Ryan, your note said we're getting a new archaeologist?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, we have SWCA was the low qualified bidder for Thomas Brooks Park phase two archaeology work, so we will be working with them. Folks might remember Sue Anna Crowley from the Historical Commission years ago. I think more than a decade ago, if you can imagine. So she's now working with them, and that's how they got involved with that project and saw that we were issuing bids, and they're the low-qualified bidder. So we'll be working with them over the summer, hopefully, to do another community-oriented um sort of quasi-public dig. This time it's focused on the house site and a little learning a little bit more about the house but um you know the people can still contribute so and I think it will be longer it'll be a little bit longer of a dig so there'll be more opportunity for people to contribute we just I think we can find a way maybe to uh you know, once we have a volunteer list to get people to basically create a list of dates and let them sign up for it and then, you know, do the lottery at the very end and say, okay, if there's too many people on a specific day, you're going to get called at a lottery, you know?
[Jennifer Keenan]: So exciting.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah.
[Jennifer Keenan]: All this digging in Medford.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Well, just so folks know, too, SWCA is the lead archaeologist monitoring the upcoming demolition of Walkling Court. So when that happens, they'll be here in Medford, too, as well. So they are not coming out of the blue. They do have and work locally. Great.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Any update on surveys, Ryan?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: We got the purchase order for Sagamore Vale all squared away. We hired John and Claire to do that project. They were the low qualified bidder. We did have another bidder. He was not qualified to do the work, so we just moved forward with John and Claire, and they are looking forward to documenting that neighborhood. I am going to work on I was working on it a little bit earlier. The next survey and planning application for Hastings Heights. So we were invited back. Mass Historical apparently didn't have enough applications for their their annual pass through to certified local governments of which we are one. So they invited us back along with all the other CLGs. So it'll be a little bit more competitive than it has been in years past, but MHC has to pass that funding through. So I'm hoping that we might apply for a little bit more than we normally would. And added bonus is that it's a 60-40 match where Mass Historical will give 60 for every 40 that we contribute. So that's an up from our normal 50-50 match in recent years, which is great. So get a little bit more out of it. So that application's due in February. We usually know by April-ish if we're going to get that project. I will acknowledge that this will be my or that particular work. This will be my last survey and planning project. I would like to wrap that up and then we've gone through the city. We've spent more than a decade doing this work. So I would like to pass it on to some people to ideally continue that work. I think the city will continue to, as long as we have the budget for it, the city will continue. But I'm going to start wrapping up projects and that is among the first. Plus I think we also can maybe work on diversifying our consultants too over time just because people can only do work for so long. So people only want to work for so long. So, you know, we might try to intersprinkle some new folks to, not that we're not pleased with their work, just, you know, to get people used to working at Medford and having fun digging into the history here.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Excellent. Okay. Does anybody have anything else for tonight before we move on to meeting minutes and wrapping up?
[Doug Carr]: Just one thing, Jenna, you and I talked about the whole, the tough storm that's currently becoming quite a scene in Medford, at least in the hillside. It's just, I think I was away when this came before, I think I was on vacation, I might've missed a meeting. And we're allowed to comment on any project that comes before the city, whether it's historic or not. And I think we should try to take every opportunity we can for to do that, especially for the larger projects. And if anyone's interested at the end of this meeting, when we're done, I can show people what Tufts is proposing, which is a 10 story building on Boston Avenue, pretty tight against the streets, which is infuriating the Hillside neighborhood right now. And it's becoming a major political battle right now with Tufts, which I don't like that, because it's not good for the city, not good for Tufts, it's not good for anyone. So we're trying to figure out a compromise, but this group can have a voice in that. And the more we do, I think the better we connect to the rest of the city, just as going forward, that's all. It's not a critique of anyone or myself or like we just, we didn't come to the game and now the game's kind of gotten out of hand a little bit. And I think if we'd intervened earlier, it may have been better.
[Jennifer Keenan]: OK. Thank you for that comment. Okay, does anybody have anything else? Brian, did you want to say something?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, do we want to... City's undertaking all of these, apparently a series of zoning changes that are getting some attention to like along the Mystic Ave corridor and Salem Street. Do we want to request that the planning department just keep us in the loop because I think they're missing the opportunity to have input from the historical commission for both input on the existing landscape and input to the proposed changes that they're thinking about making. And some of these proposals are more advanced than others. Apparently the one on Salem Street, which I had no idea was working its way through the approval process until fairly recently when some community members have become active in raising an awareness of it. Some of the changes are rather drastic and it would result maybe in the obliteration of the existing landscape by significantly upzoning the area where you could almost double or triple the intensity of number of units. So I wonder if we just want to maybe reach out to the planning department and just say, hey, can you just, you know, CC us on some of these major meetings, we're happy to come, we're happy to provide comments, you know, on proposed plans. And, you know, just so we don't, you know, we're not blindsided, so we don't blindside them, everybody's on a collaborative nature. I think that's sort of important. But it also, we'll circle back. We really do need a city preservation planner, a full-time staff person who's just advocating for preservation in all aspects. And that'd be one of the, I guess that's one of the major roles that's missing from the department. And that one person can't staff all the boards, but it'd be great if they, you know, we're not stretching people in a million different directions.
[Doug Carr]: I think those are all good ideas, Ryan. I think the city's zoning process is something that I haven't seen a lot of where they're basically entertaining. Like, if you have an idea, I mean, I've been I've talked to the planning department because I was curious where we were in the zoning process and it seems like if you have a plan for an area of the city and they think it's a good plan, they will kind of work with you to build the zoning around that. Sometimes it's proactive, sometimes it's a little bit reactive. There's pluses and minuses with both approaches, but your larger point about more transparency, more public eyes, more eyes on everything earlier is a good one. And I 100% endorse, and we should obviously talk to Dennis and Teresa, everyone in the planning department is to see if we can be made aware, copied us on all the draft proposals schedules and dates maps of the city what's done what's not done this is a multi-year process but it's not going to go on for 10 years it's going to go on for one or two more as my understanding recording stopped recording in progress sorry that was my bad
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, I think yeah I do think, you know, I like I think of a neighboring Somerville right the very before they even changed it before they even entertained. You know, changing the zoning they basically reached out to the community and started with a series of meetings saying. you know, who, what, where, when, you know, like, what do you want to see? You know, what's working, what's not working? Just tell us even from a neighborhood by neighborhood basis. And then they laid out a plan and then they brought that plan to the various communities again. And there was a lot of tightening up. And then they came up with their master. Here's our zoning. It's the entire city. We reworked it. It was collaborative and out it went. So, you know, Medford's a little bit more divided. So I think, you know, I think it'd be a little bit tougher to do that, but it definitely should have that level of engagement. Like, you know, I should not have to find out, you know, from a council meeting that approves the zoning, that the zoning change is going to happen. Like it should have been months ago when, you know, when these community feedbacks are. And, you know, These are not six month projects from notification to approval. This is, these are year long, not need to rush through type of things.
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: It also sort of brings to my mind, like we're doing all of these survey projects that should actually be part, should inform the zoning. you know, any rejiggering of the zoning?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, most of the Salem Street Corridor, including Haines Square, is documented and that, you know, that should be something that the consultants doing the documentation looked at and said, yeah, these are historic buildings or they're not historic buildings, you know, some can change, some should be, say, the same, you know, and I know they can't answer the question, is it economical to just demolish every three-decker and put up something that's six stories? But I think that needs to be taken into account.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I mean, I think the bottom line is, yes, we want to be informed. So if planning can keep us in the loop and we can comment, I think that would be a necessary step.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, maybe I think not to throw more on Dennis's plate, but Dennis, maybe we can start that conversation with Alicia and just see how we can just make sure that we stay in the loop there. If he's there, he's probably there. He can hear me.
[Denis MacDougall]: No, I can hear you. It's like all that stuff sort of goes through CD board and not really me. So, but yeah, you can talk to Alicia and Danielle too since she staffs CD board since I think that's probably the best strategy.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: yeah yeah okay does anybody have anything else before we go to meeting minutes how's the brooks estate doing it's before nine o'clock so i'm still hopefully not keeping anybody but i'm just curious as to what the how the brooks estate admin's doing and how you guys are doing um yeah i mean well we only have money to pay our admin
[Jennifer Keenan]: I can't remember if it's through the end of February or the end.
[Doug Carr]: Five months.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah. Did she start October 1?
[Doug Carr]: I'm not sure.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah. So we're not going to have her too much longer, unfortunately. But things are moving along. I'm like so brain dead right now about Brooks Estate. We're, let's see, we've sent out three newsletters. We have some, trying to get some volunteers to help us. What else are we working on, Doug? Well, the new president is fantastic. Yeah, the repairs of the manor.
[Doug Carr]: Well, the CPC was trying to get the, call it a temporary parking lot, although it may not be temporary, built this calendar year with some funds that were different from CPC, although it was partially funded by CPC. We got some other money from the state and the architects, sorry, the civil engineer, Banesh, who did the design of the entire building, it rode for access drive from Grove Street to the parking lot. is working on just this focused, like, mini plan, phase one, if you will, to get something that's functional. It's not the full, you know, multi-million dollar, rebuild the entire road, all the utilities, you know, but it's something that would give us a functional parking lot adjacent to the Carriage House this year, you know, and there's value in that to get people up there, to get increased accessibility. So we're, they're starting in like a couple days to redo that. piece and we're going to get it priced and put it out and hopefully build it as soon as we can.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, we got to spend that money by June 30th. Yes, we do. And we're working on revamping the membership tiers and hopefully roll that out before the end of Q1. So, so, yeah, there's a lot happening up at the Brooks Estate, I mean, with the board. Not much happening at the Brooks Estate, but hopefully we'll be in for a good year, especially if we can get that parking lot done. That'll be huge.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Great. While you guys are doing that stuff, Doug, it might make sense to maybe ping the cemetery department to see where they're at with the design of their seven acre parcel at the bottom of the hill. So maybe tie some of that work. So they are poking around with it. So they've hired a consultant to do some design work for some ideas.
[Doug Carr]: So, um, well, we designed the access drive with a little path that leads to them and it just stops about 20 feet from the road and say, this continues here. That's as far as we can take it legally. We'd love to be consulted though.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah. I think there's a, there's an opportunity to collaborate there. I mean, and this is the, you know, this is the other side of the road. Yep. Okay. Yeah.
[Doug Carr]: No, yeah, no, I'm aware of where it is. Yeah, I was told that it was the Oak Grove, we finished by 2001, no more grades available and they were only off by 20 years, but now it's actually becoming true from what I can tell.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, I was driving around there. I wonder if there's some additional space we can muster up around like the mausoleums on the other sides, but I'm sure they've maybe looked at every available location, but you just never know. So.
[Doug Carr]: Yep. No, I'd love to talk to them. Who do you recommend I reach out to?
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: I think Steve Brogan would probably be the best bet. And to start there, I mean, he's probably dealing with a consultant and just providing an update. So.
[Doug Carr]: Okay. I've talked to him before. I'll reach out to him.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Yep. So just be good to collaborate. You know, the Brooks Estate is, important to, you know, Medford and, you know, the historical commission has a, an active stake and a seat on that board. So I think we have a role to play. And of course with us, that's me with us, uh, with us collaborating with them on the heads, you know, the headstone restoration project. I think that it's, uh, you know, we're all, we're all going to be able to bring stuff together and, you know, come up with something good for the cemetery and you guys and other projects moving forward.
[Doug Carr]: Yep, 100%.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, great. Meeting minutes. Peter, I found a little typo. Okay. Under historical commission officers and committee members, the third sentence all the way to the right, it should just be two and not two with two O's. Okay. Sorry, it just stuck out like a sore thumb. I was like, whoa, that's a typo. Otherwise, I'll take a motion to approve.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Move to approve with correction.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thanks, Ryan.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Second.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thank you, Ed. OK, motion to approve our meeting minutes from December 2024. Ryan? Yes. Peter? Yes. Kit.
[MCM00001614_SPEAKER_01]: I'll abstain because I wasn't here.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thank you. Ed.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yep.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And Doug.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: OK, so four and one abstention. OK, great. I think that'll do it. Motion to dismiss.
[Unidentified]: I move. Second.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, motion to close our meeting, 8.41 p.m. Ryan?
[Unidentified]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Peter?
[Unidentified]: Yes.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Kitts? Yes. Ed?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yep.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Doug?
[Doug Carr]: And yes, and when we're closed, if anyone wants to hang on and see the Tufts thing, I'm happy to answer any questions.
[Jennifer Keenan]: All right, thank you all.
[Doug Carr]: Thanks.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Adios.
[Doug Carr]: Stop that recording.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Doug, why don't I, you want me to set up a meeting?
[Frances Mitchell]: Yeah, I can do that if you want.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: It's not really a commission item, so we can, let me set up another meeting and then.
[Doug Carr]: Okay, it'll take about five minutes for me to walk you through it if anyone's interested.
[hsUGO5ihrRw_SPEAKER_31]: Okay, yeah, let me set up a meeting. I'll look for your emails in about five, two minutes, two minutes.
[Unidentified]: Okay.
[Doug Carr]: All right, see you in a few, thank you.