[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, this is the Medford Historical Commission. Today is Monday, July 10. It is 702 we're going to call our meeting to order. And I will start with our little phrase here that's required by the city pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021. This meeting of the City of Medford Historical Commission will be conducted via remote means. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so by using the Zoom link provided for in the agenda. No in-person attendance or members of the public will be permitted, and any public participation will be, and any public hearing during this meeting shall be by remote means only. And Ryan is gonna take the helm tonight, and I am going to be a participant. have at it, Ryan.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, we're going to start off with 23 Winter Street. The determination of significance, just a reminder for the folks who are participating in this meeting tonight, the commission has to determine the significance on applications that come before us. It's a first step of a two-step process and What that means is that the building either has been listed or is subject to listing on the National Register of Historic Places has been listed or subject to listing on the Massachusetts Register of Historic Places, or was built within 75 years or older, which determined by the commission is a significant building either because it is importantly associated with one or more historic persons or events, or with the broad architectural, cultural, political, economic, or social history of the city or the commonwealth, or it is historically or architecturally important in terms of period, style, method of building construction, or association with an important architect or builder either by itself or in the context of a group of buildings. So commissioners, I uploaded the MHC inventory form, and for those people who are following at home, it's available on the historical commission's website, medfordhistoricalcommission.org. If you look for our blog post, it's right at the top of the latest news and information, so people can download the form and follow along. I will start this conversation with a request for a motion, one way or the other, to kickstart the debate.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, I'll motion to find for significance with the goal of voting now.
[Unidentified]: And a second. I will second OK.
[Jennifer Keenan]: OK, but I have. Yeah, I have a question. First of all, on because there are two Form B's in the folder. And I couldn't figure out why, but I also, go ahead, I'll let you answer, Ryan.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, so John took a trip down to the building department and revised his findings. They were basically the same. He just made sure that there was information on the architect and builder.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, so the one labeled number two is the more recent one.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, yeah.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, but also, okay.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I was going to say the findings didn't change.
[Jennifer Keenan]: It didn't change, but also it says on the first page moved, no, but then it says in the narrative that the house might've been moved and then the maps show an indication that the house was moved. So I thought that was thoroughly confusing.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, it's a little confusing. So he's talking about number 10 Winter Street. So I'll make sure that he clarifies that. So this house that didn't move there, the house that this parcel originally belonged to did move.
[Jennifer Keenan]: So the house that was here moved and then this house was built?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah. Okay. That was not clear to me.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay.
[Adam Hurtubise]: That's why we're doing a form on that building too. Okay.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And just to give some narrative around this one for me personally, I mean, I love these little hip roof two families and they're nice and compact and small. I didn't think there was anything overly interesting in the historical narrative in terms of the people and the history of the owners of the property. And from an architectural standpoint, I think we have many examples of this house around town. So I think any sort of addition or alteration here is fine by me.
[Unidentified]: Okay, Doug.
[Doug Carr]: I also had a question just about the form. I thought I read somewhere that it said that it was the first house, no, first built on Winter Street, the only building there until after 1910. So how is that possible if they had another house that was moved and this was put in its place?
[Adam Hurtubise]: No, I think, let me look at the maps real quick.
[Doug Carr]: Did I misread that?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, I think the house that was moved I'm just looking here. I think the house that was moved was originally on the corner of Cotting Street and Winthrop Street. And then they put it on Winter Street. And Winter Street only, I think Winter Street only came about because of the, it's the former canal. I think, well, it's part of, it's former canal land. So it's kind of weird. But yeah, I would say that all the 20th century homes that were built were probably all built around the same time by that Knowlton fellow. So I'll make sure that John clarifies that that information is like a prelude leading up to, you know, maybe he should just have a little subheading that just says development on it.
[Doug Carr]: No, I'm kind of with Jen on this. I don't see a lot of integrity of the building. It's completely been overhauled. I'd love to see what it looked like if there was a historic photo, but obviously nothing like what's there. So I haven't seen any of the proposed drawings, but I'm willing to gamble on those that we can make an improvement on it. I would like to see those. I'd like to encourage the developer to show us those plans just to get some friendly advice about good design. That's something we hand out here monthly for no charge at all time. But I don't see any reason to dwell on this project, this building anymore.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I think they're with the application, Doug.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, just a point of clarification. They're in the Google Drive if you want to take a look at them while other comments are being made.
[Unidentified]: Yeah.
[Adam Hurtubise]: OK.
[Unidentified]: Will do.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Peter, are you? Are you talking? You're muted. Yeah, I was going to say, I have the drawings here. If anybody wants to see them. Nope, I think they're irrelevant to the conversation until after we make the determination. There's nothing earth shattering about them. They're just fine. Uh, any additional comments on the significance? Not for me either. I, I think, uh, Jen and Doug touched on the high points and I I'm kind of in the same place. Okay.
[Jenny Graham]: And Jess, you said, no, I don't have anything to add. I think the documentation is sufficient that we have here. Yeah.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Um, on a motion to find for significance, I will call the question. Um, just remember that Jen made a motion for significance. So a yes vote would be significant and no vote shoots down. Okay. So, uh, I'll go around the room as I see you on my screen, Jen. No. Jess. No. Peter.
[Unidentified]: Uh, no.
[Adam Hurtubise]: And Doug.
[Unidentified]: No.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Great. Motion fails four to zero, zero to four. Yeah. So Gina was on this call. Gina, you're all set. We'll get the letter out sometime later this week. Okay. Moving right along 31 South street pier. Do you have the drawer, the latest set of architectural drawings? I saw all the emails going around. It'd be great if we could just show those real quick to the commissioners. I do have them. I couldn't pull them up if your internet's bad. No, I have good Wi-Fi here. I just a little different setup. So, okay.
[Unidentified]: Okay. Okay. Can you guys see that? Okay.
[Adam Hurtubise]: So this is the Summer Street facade, South Street, sorry, facade. This is the, what's the name of that road that borders, but it's the alleyway, whatever facade.
[Unidentified]: Side elevation. South Street elevation.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Right-hand facade, rear facade, axonometric.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Looks great.
[Adam Hurtubise]: So these two windows are faux or blanked out because of the stairway, but we got a pretty regular facade here. The demo delay subcommittee was happy with that facade. And that was the one that we worked on the hardest with them. Floor plans. More floor plans. That's it. Design turned out great I think it's much more appropriate to the neighborhood it works to conserve the existing building that's there. It works with the existing renovation now works with the building rather than you know, fights to fight against the style. And, you know, I think that that's a good lead in for that end of South Street. And, you know, it keeps it juxtaposed against the other building that was built there. That's ultra modern and, you know, clearly tells you that it's a new to the district. So this one, you know, tries to disguise that a little bit. I think it's very successful.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, I think it looks so good. And I just would like to thank Nelson and his team for working with us on that. And I would just also like to confirm for everybody that this set dated 7-10-23 is already uploaded into CitizenServe. So it is there, ready to go.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Great. Unless there's any other comments, I'll take a motion to release this project from demo delay.
[Jenny Graham]: I'll need to release the project from demo delay on the project at 31 South Street. Second.
[Unidentified]: Second.
[Adam Hurtubise]: OK, on that motion, I will go around the room. Jen?
[Unidentified]: Yes. Jess? Yes. Peter? Yes. And Doug? Yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Motion passes four zero. All right, Nelson, we'll get your letter out and we'll upload it to the citizen serve and you'll be on your way. Thank you.
[Unidentified]: Thank you.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, next up on the agenda, 280 Mystic Ave, the PDD review, I sent out- Which is actually not 280 Mystic, it's 243 Mystic. Yeah, I think I sent out, yeah, I sent out 243 Mystic Ave's information, which if people take a look at it, that, yeah. So I sent the right information out, it was just wrong on the agenda, because, you know, whatever, there was a lot of stuff going on. So did anybody have a chance to take a look at that information yet? Any comments? Do we have any comments? Do we want to comment? And we might as well tackle at the same time, I sent out the information for 550 Boston Ave. Do we have any comment on that either?
[Jennifer Keenan]: So just to clarify that this was my error. There was a proposed development district also for 280 Mystic. which apparently has been withdrawn from community development so that project is not moving forward. This one is moving forward at 243 and that is, they're looking for comments by This weekend by Thursday this week. So if we have any to send over. I had some comments in general, but I don't know that it pertains to our role as the historical commission. There was a comment, something that they looked at traffic on Mystic. And my comment was, traffic on Mystic isn't the problem, it's traffic on Harvard Street that is the bigger problem. And I don't know if- That whole area. Yeah. You know, like having loading docks on Harvard, I don't know, is like the best choice. But again, I don't know that that's our purview from a historical point of view.
[Doug Carr]: Our comments are whatever we want them to be. We have no limitations. We have people on here with different areas of expertise. If we don't like the aesthetics, if we don't like the trash, if we don't like anything or we think it can be improved, I've always thought that that's our privy to make any comment we feel is appropriate. I think we should write something on this because I'm obviously a fan of development. I thought the thing down the road, the big lab buildings that were being proposed were reasonable, but this thing fills the entire site. There's literally not an inch of space anywhere on this site that's not building footprints from what I saw. And again, that street is an absolute nightmare, eight hours a day. I'm struggling to see how it could succeed there financially or otherwise, because it's just, Labs just need a certain scale to be economically viable. And I just don't see that here right now. It's so small. It's like a boutique. It's a boutique building. It's actually better for housing than it would be for a lab, in my opinion.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I was going to say it almost would be like you'd want to wipe out large swaths of the commercial development on multiple parcels further down the road where those parcels are really underutilized. This is kind of tucking it into an area that's not really meant for it without demolishing adjacent buildings to make a larger project.
[Doug Carr]: It's also eight stories tall, 140 feet. That's a skyscraper there. It's to be the tallest building, one of the tallest buildings in Medford.
[Adam Hurtubise]: It's like a sliver building almost.
[Doug Carr]: Yeah.
[Jennifer Keenan]: But I guess, is that, I mean, I think isn't the whole plan for Mystic to be like taller buildings. So someone's gotta be first, right? Someone's gonna be the first one to stick out and look awkward while the rest of the sites get developed. So maybe, you know, a smaller footprint, but tall, maybe that's okay that it's the first one. I mean, I'm always, you know, for having like, you know, tuck it back a little bit, like create a nice little entry at the streetscape, especially on the corner, you know, maybe a little patch of grass or something. I didn't really see an exterior rendering. Did I miss that?
[Adam Hurtubise]: When you would, you would want to, I feel like you would want to, if you're doing rezoning like this, you would want to accomplish it on more than just a singular parcel. You would take multiple parcels to encourage say some developer, rather than build an eight story building to build a more modest four or five story building. That's maybe elongated that fits better with the master plan for this area. You know, I, I feel, you know, it's okay if a big project caters to one developer, but this really seems like it's. you know, not doing anything for the greater good of Medford. It's just catering to one particular parcel when it could be so much better.
[Jennifer Keenan]: But I, but we don't, but they don't have that right now. They have this. So I think, I don't know. I think a one parcel doesn't bother me as much as just, you know, is it, I don't, I don't know. But this is- I just worry about the traffic on that corner.
[Doug Carr]: Do you want to see the elevation? I would actually, because I couldn't find that in the rendering. Sorry, I missed it.
[Unidentified]: Okay.
[Adam Hurtubise]: So that's the Harvard Street elevation. There's the plan.
[Unidentified]: So it's giant sale.
[Adam Hurtubise]: It's quite a statement. That's Harvard street elevation. North elevation.
[Unidentified]: I don't know. Almost brutalist.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Doug Carr]: Oh, I disagree. Is that all concrete? What is that?
[Adam Hurtubise]: I don't know. It looks, it looks to me like a giant sail. That's what it looks like. I mean, it's, it's got texture. I think that's kind of cool, but I don't see any call outs of materials, but It's got a, there's your section diagram.
[Doug Carr]: Peter, is there parking in the basement?
[Adam Hurtubise]: There's no parking anywhere? Just a couple of like eight spaces or something like that. Yeah, there isn't much parking, sorry. It was a garage. Yeah, it's on the first floor plan.
[Jennifer Keenan]: The narrative said something about not every employee would have parking, that they wanna have a shuttle from the T stops.
[Adam Hurtubise]: So they have like one- I don't know what these are. I think they're car lifts. Oh, okay. Yeah, but that's only- So that's one, two, let's say- 12, 14. Yeah, like 15, 16 spaces or something. For 80,000 square feet or 70,000? Gonna be a lot of people hiking up to College Ave and whatever.
[Doug Carr]: I think we should make comments. Look, I think there's potential for a building here. I do, but this doesn't feel like it to me. I don't know. It's so small. I can't imagine this thing being, I mean, the lab market just isn't there right now.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Well, and I wonder if, Peter, can you go back to the section So we had the same issue with Boston Ave. There has to be commercial entities there, right? So are they just putting the commercial entities on the upper floors instead of engaging them at the street level? Again, when it's the same issue, there's no engagement at the street level. There's a little vestibule, and then they just wall the rest of the building off for parking. So you could almost recycle your same comments for although I appreciate getting up that high, you might actually look over and see the Mystic River.
[Doug Carr]: Yeah, I actually think that's okay, what's being proposed, because there's no way you can make the building function if you don't have loading and some parking in the lobby, there's nothing left. The footprint is too small. I mean, there are single family lots in Medford that are bigger than this lot.
[Jennifer Keenan]: How big is the lot?
[Doug Carr]: 9,000 square feet, I believe.
[Adam Hurtubise]: So this studio, is this a dwelling unit, I guess?
[Doug Carr]: No, that's probably, it can't be.
[Adam Hurtubise]: It has to be asked to be a commercial space because they have to include some sort of like you know, retail or whatever. And, you know, so if it's, if they're saying studio, I think they mean like dance.
[Jennifer Keenan]: It's like, or like an office studio.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Unidentified]: Yeah.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Or it could be like a shared, like, you know, office or something.
[Doug Carr]: Okay.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Doug, you want to take a stab at the first draft and we'll get caught up?
[Doug Carr]: Yeah, I'll circulate something. I'll, I can, you know, again, I want, I don't want to be all negative here. I just think that, I want development on Mystic Avenue. I think we want to see that as a city. I struggle with this site with anything. It's not that close to the T, any of the T. It's got bus access at best.
[Jennifer Keenan]: But if the company is going to run a shuttle, then- The shuttle is meant to supplement, not to be the only thing to get people there. Well, but that would be a facet of them being able to hire people. So- Where did you see something about a shuttle? It was in the narrative. It's on, if you look in the folder, the folder called draft submission materials, the second document, title, it's 6-15-2023. There's like a letter. And so if you read on page, on page three under parking. It says we are not providing parking for every employee in the building so that employees will use public transit bikes or the shuttle service from stations that we will provide to get to the building.
[Jenny Graham]: Okay. And then it says down. I tried to go through all of them, but there were lots of docs.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah. And then it says, again, if you go down the same page under number three, it says the Verdant team chose this site because of its accessibility to public transit. There is red line, green line, orange line within walking distance, biking distance, or shuttle distance. This is a critical marketing point for us to bring companies to the site.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay. So send your comments that you guys have. Cause Jen, you said you had some comments and stuff. Send them to Doug and Doug will feed them into a letter and we'll go from there. Next up 500 Boston have additional comments that people have a chance to look at this one. Peter, did you want to pull up? I'm probably going to recuse because again, it's a former employer, but, um, I thought it was, I thought it's okay. It's got some different materials, some different massing and stuff. The addition isn't too large. I might have those plans as well if you want to look at them. You want to? Yeah, I think it'd be good to pull them up just real quick. Let's see here.
[Doug Carr]: Yeah, it's good Peter because it's it's on first glance, it's hard to tell what's existing and new. Yeah, I think it kind of shows that.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, hold on a sec.
[Unidentified]: Now I just gotta figure out how to share. Okay.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Can you see that?
[Jennifer Keenan]: Is this where the garages used to be that we allowed them to tear down?
[Unidentified]: What does it look like?
[Jennifer Keenan]: It's kind of like a cross from Semolina.
[Adam Hurtubise]: It's further towards College Ave. It's near Semolina though, isn't it? It is. Semolina is to the right, about 400 feet.
[Jennifer Keenan]: It's the same side of the street as Semolina?
[Doug Carr]: It is.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, I think it's... Oh, okay.
[Doug Carr]: If you go back four pages, Peter, you can see the existing photos on the same set of drawings that show what's there now.
[Unidentified]: Okay.
[Doug Carr]: I think it's one or two more, that's it. Between those buildings, adding, keeping both buildings, taking off that canopy, I believe, on the brick building and building something in between.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Building something in here, I think.
[Doug Carr]: Yeah, extending out towards the street a little bit. And that, if you go back to the other ending, it might be able to make a little more sense now. but both buildings, the brick on the right and the cream color on the left appear to be staying, and the black meadow is the bridge in between them. That's the new piece that's bringing out towards Boston Avenue. Correct, right there. So it's a very industrial context and industrial design. That's how I see it.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, I think it plays a lot off of the industrial nature of this lower end. I mean, that's what this area is. So I like it.
[Doug Carr]: I actually don't have any comments myself.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I think it's fine. It's pretty good, even though I would recuse. Cannon did another building further down, the one closer to Harvard. on the same side. No, I think it's on the other side of the tracks actually. They did a decent job on that, but that was back when I was there in like 88. So, anyway.
[Jennifer Keenan]: So I just have a, I'm fine with this, this looks fine, but my question is why aren't they taking advantage of height here? Is there a height restriction here? Like this whole site seems like a lost opportunity to go up.
[Jenny Graham]: I was thinking the same thing.
[Doug Carr]: I think my reading, obviously Toss could answer that better than I, but it's all existing one and two story buildings. And they're just not looking to make a big investment here. They're just extruding outwards. They're not, you know, if they were reconsider the site, they might tear all three of them down and go vertical five stories. They probably could easily do that, but it's just not in there. in their needs or their plans from what I can tell.
[Adam Hurtubise]: A little bit more space. They're trying to spruce up the streetscape a little bit. Yeah, it looks like.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I just wonder in five years if they're going to come back and be like, we want to put on three more stories, which is, I mean, it's obviously their prerogative. I just think, you know, you're probably right, Doug. It's probably money right now.
[Doug Carr]: That building is probably, the roof is probably like open way crosses that can't handle any real weight. You'd have to tear everything down and start over most likely. At least the center portion going back.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, I have no comments on this.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, great. So we can just provide them with a brief letter that just says no comments and we'll go from there. Okay, moving on to old business. Properties under demo delay. I don't think we've heard anything, Jen. What's on here right now? 33 third, we haven't heard anything. 31 South just came off. Oh, 91 Winchester. We are working with a builder to get costs. We have one builder's cost. We need to maybe, you know, double check and get a second opinion just to make sure that the costs are in line and then we're going to look at what the funding options are for that. So. The project is bigger in the sense that it, even with the demolition of, if the demolition of the carriage house takes place, there would still need to be a significant amount of investment in the other building in order to make it safe as well. So the great debate here now is either save it all or lose it all. And we think we're, looking at maybe trying to put some money into keeping it all, because the benefit of keeping it all far outweighs, you know, removing a portion of it and spending all that money only to have to put more money into the other half that's there. So there's obviously, you know, before the current owner's time, there was a lot of deferred maintenance on the part of the previous owners. So that's in works. I don't have anything else. Jed, did you have anything else on? We haven't heard anything. Oh, not that it's under demo delay, but Peter, the carriage house at Otis is coming right along. The new garage there, they have all the framing up and enclosed. It just needs side. It looks really good. It looks almost identical to the carriage house that was there. So I'm quite happy with the way that turned out. Okay, good. I'll have to check it out one of these days.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I don't have anything else, Ryan. I just, after next month, 3rd Street will have fulfilled their delay. Yep.
[Adam Hurtubise]: And then they've got a lot of ways for Jen what's happening on Grove Street.
[Jennifer Keenan]: You know, nothing too much, honestly. It seemed really slow, like they were moving right along. And it's just been, well, I'm sure the weather hasn't helped them, but it's just an empty, open facade. I haven't really seen too much going on over there in the past couple of weeks. So.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Uh, unfortunately I heard that there was a bit of a calamity at green street and that they had some issues there and they were working without a permit. So that's unfortunate. And somebody got injured as a result of that. So, um, hopefully, you know, hopefully that person was, you know, we'll get better and that the project will move forward. Cause it seemed like a good design. I would hate to see that marred by the, what went on there. Okay, permits, we didn't have any problem with permits lately, right, Jen? We did get word back from KP Law that said that the building inspector does have the power to enforce our bylaw and stop work if it doesn't comply with the plans that are submitted to us and uploaded to the permit system. So that made him happy, that made us happy, it gave us a legal decision by KP Law that we can go back on, so everybody wins there. So that should take care of that question. I still think that we need to do some work on the bylaws and our processes, but for now, we at least have that on our side.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, and Doug, I know we talked last week about kind of the process and we Ryan and I were chatting and we thought that we would come up with kind of some first passes of like, here's what we could change and, you know, try to tighten up things and just process these change. So I think our plan is to kind of work on that and then Maybe next month, present that to the commission and for a talking point so that we can, I'd like personally, I'd like by if not September one, October one to have whatever we're going to do in place, update our packet and just kind of have, because I think the fall and the winter is when we get the busiest in the sense of people teeing up for next year for their projects.
[Doug Carr]: Jen, in terms of making changes, and I think your plan is the right one. Do we have the ability to change that without any other outside approval, city council, mayor, anyone else to change our processes?
[Jennifer Keenan]: Well, I mean, we're not changing the ordinance, right? We're just changing in the sense of our definitions and the process of how things are going to work. Like, for example, Ryan had an idea of, like, everything pre-1900 is automatically significant. So that just cuts out 30 days, it cuts out a significance hearing, and it helps to speed things along, and those are our most vulnerable buildings, right? So we can go from application right to public hearing and cut time out. So whether, you know, whether we all agree that to that, that's just an idea of, you know, having listened to our petitioners over the past couple of years and hearing, you know, challenges and, you know, complaints from council members or whatever that that takes too long, you know, with the goal of trying to shorten it as much as we can, but still doing feasible reviews, that could be one way that, you know, that we look, look at things. So I think obviously the goal is to not is to keep the spirit of the ordinance as it is so that we don't have to go back before it or we take it in a multi step approach where we say okay, because I know that we've certainly like Ryan and I and I know Doug, you and I have talked to about. we want and the building commissioner to like really defining partial demolitions like what is reviewable and what isn't and getting that in the ordinance because that is not in the ordinance and it's subjective and I think making it not subjective takes out a lot of ambiguity for lack of a better way to say that. I think
[Doug Carr]: Sorry, go ahead.
[Jennifer Keenan]: No, I was just going to say, so I think that perhaps it's a two-step approach where, okay, here's things that we can do just in our processes without changing the ordinance. And then here are some changes we'd like to make to the ordinance with the building commissioner, you know, kind of behind us on that. And then we can petition the council for that change. When we're ready, and I don't know that that I don't even know that that that we're really ready even before the election.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, I think we can speed up our own processes internally before we, you know, we can still have the changes behind. excuse me, behind us, uh, for the ordinance, but I think it, you know, we can speed it up quite a bit just by doing our own internal stuff. Like, you know, doing what we did, as I mentioned, knocking off that 30 days, like Jen said, um, for the pre 1900 buildings will help speed up quite a bit. And then for the rest of them, you know, we could choose to pass on review and. You know, go from there.
[Doug Carr]: So my, my piece that I think is important and, uh, Is the kind of, we know that anything we really want to look at is going to need a form B and I feel like. Are we, it's a proforma thing. If we know we're going to need a form B, it should be, it should be automatic. It should be a staff decision that would save us 30 days again, um, to really accelerate the process and allow people to come with the form B on the first meetings in theory, you know, if, if possible, um, or as fast as we can so that we don't have to. string it out to two or three months and maybe get it down to 45 days or less than two meetings. So I'm open to any ideas that would just allow the process to go faster, but knowing what we have a pattern now, we've been doing this for so long, seen so many buildings, there's really only like three or four different ways things go. And we can, the automatic pre-1900 seems to me like a good move There could be others, but if we can just make this process a little sharper and just focus it in one meeting in theory, I think that would be great.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, I should have something ready by next. I have something in the works with all the motions that we would need to pass along some of those administrative decisions right away. So it'll be similar to what we put forth in the garages slash carriage house memo. Which we should probably just reaffirm just to make sure that we're still on the same page.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I think the other thing too is that, and this was a little bit of an accident but like we had a smidge of money left in our budget this year. So I think, obviously, you know, if there's anything. we don't have a form beyond, maybe we can just preemptively order them. Obviously we have to be cognizant of our budget and make sure that we leave enough money in there for whatever is gonna come in in this next fiscal year. But if there's a few things out there that we know, we just wanna make sure that we have documented, then perhaps we can order some preemptively just to have those in case they come before us.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, the general public can get in on this just as a point for people, anybody who's watching at home. You can see what has been inventoried on the MACRS website, which is M-A-C-R-I-S, Massachusetts Cultural Resource Information System. If a form isn't there and you know of some sort of awesome historic home in your neighborhood, please send us a line and point it out to us so we can take a look at it.
[Jennifer Keenan]: But also we might have it because MACRS is behind on what's in inventory and what's uploaded.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah. Yeah, we certainly will respond if we do have it. You know, it's about a project or two behind on what we're doing for work.
[Doug Carr]: Is it six or 12 months behind? How much is it behind?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, about a year. Yeah, it's about a year. And it really depends on how much stuff is given to them at any particular time.
[Jennifer Keenan]: But we have more than what's on MACRS is my point. Like we might have it in our files. We send everything we get from the consultants to MACRS. So we get it first.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, the moment MHC receives it, when you know it's coming online, they'll assign numbers for it, but it might take a year to get the actual form up online. So.
[Jennifer Keenan]: And I think with the survey products, right, because after this next one, Ryan, aren't we going back through and doing a second pass on everything that we've done?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, we have to decide what we want to do.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Right. So my point being is that every year that goes by, we'll have even more inventory forms. Right, because now we've done them first pass and hopefully on the second pass. If we don't already have something we can identify properties that we need to have.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, I think the priority for second round for most projects, you know, if every project is generating like 125 35. forms will be to focus on those pre-1900 buildings as the rarest. Not all of them are worthy of documentation. Some of them have really been brutalized, but there are some really, really good examples and stuff that we passed up. We didn't get a chance this year to do Hastings Heights and West Medford, but that will be next on the list when we finally get back into a normal rowing cycle.
[Unidentified]: Okay, any other comments?
[Jennifer Keenan]: We'll work on that, Ryan.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yep, yep. Okay, just rolling right into it. I'm just going to skip real quick. We'll go back to CPA projects. So for survey projects, we are working on things. So John is done with the Brickyards project. However, I was approached by the Massachusetts Historical Commission who told me they have extra money from that fiscal year that they have to spend and they have to pass it along to their CLGs. So I told them we'd be interested in it. It's a $5,000 matching project. So we could take $5,000 out of our pretty sizable budget of this fiscal year to get another $5,000 for a $10,000 project. The consultant suggested that we do a portion of Winter Hill that is the neighborhood If you're looking at the intersection of Harvard and Main Street standing looking north towards Medford Square. It's a section immediately to your left. It's known as the Boynton subdivision. It's a lot of pre 1875 1880 buildings and You know, MHC just needs us to do some contracting with John, but I would like to commission. This is a sizable allocation from our budget. So I do want an official vote from MHC, um, just so that we can pass that along when the time comes for to do the actual contract that they know that we'll have funding in place. Questions. we'll get maybe 50 inventory forms out of this project. So it's gonna be a good project. I need a motion to allocate that money.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Motion to allocate $10,000 to extra survey project. Yeah, it's a $5,000 match for a $10,000 project. Okay, so it's a $5,000 budget match.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yep. 5,000 from MHC. Yep. And 5,000 from us for a $10,000 project.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay. So motion to spend $5,000 on mass historical survey project.
[Unidentified]: And a second.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Second.
[Unidentified]: Okay. We'll go around as I see you, Jen.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yes.
[Unidentified]: And Jess. Yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: And Peter. Yes. And Doug?
[Unidentified]: Yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: OK, great. All right, that was the key piece. So that's all good. So we'll work on just finalizing scope of work and getting that out the door. So the consultants will, it has to be spent by September. So the consultants are literally dropping everything for the Fulton Heights project to get this done to satisfy Mass Historical. They'll be happy and we will be back on their good graces after all the stuff that we went through last year. Um, okay. Now switching gears back again, CPA projects. Okay. So I have a couple of updates on Thomas Brooks park. Uh, one pumps wall is completely done. That's done. It's good forever. Yay. Um, we did have some money left over in the budget for last year. So we paid for a little bit of extra, uh, work on the sandstone caps. They really had to dig deep quite literally in a, in a, um, salvage yard to find caps that are similar. It's like a New York brownstone. It's something that was probably added in the 19th century. It's very hard to find now. That's why they don't build brownstones anymore. So we paid an extra $3,000 or so for that stuff. But the benefit is that the stones are in good quality condition. Everything's been sealed, buttoned up, and the wall should be good. I was told it doesn't need maintenance for maybe another 10 years before they even have to look at it. And the system at the top, they just have to re-caulk it, and it should be good for 100 years if they follow that 10-year maintenance cycle.
[Doug Carr]: Yeah, Brian, I walked by that wall yesterday and looked at the flashing details. It is really well built. The copper flashing underneath those caps his belt suspenders, that wall, which should be fine for decades. I would be surprised if they needed to do much at all for the next 20 plus years. It was really well done. Solid detail, solid. I'm glad you guys spent the money on that.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yes. Yeah. And it's vertical now. They completely rebuilt the end wall, so it's straight. So we just need to monitor how much it's moving, if it's moving at all. I don't think it will ever again. I think that was a long, long lean, and I think we'll be fine for a long time.
[Jennifer Keenan]: It's funny to think that everything started with that wall. Like, our initial project was to just work on the wall, and now it's, you know, it ballooned into this larger project, but now the wall's done, and it's just a showcase. It looks awesome.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, so fieldstone wall. A little bit of a negative. I had I had the contractor come back because we got noticed that some of the wall had collapsed. And he was saying, no, it definitely didn't collapse. It was definitely ripped apart in a location where people had been previously walking up by Salt and Stall Road. It's at the very tip of the park. It's not a safe place to cross. So we talked with the traffic engineering departments. you know okayed at least closing that off for public safety. There's an entrance literally about 30 feet south of that location. So the contractor told us he would rebuild the wall. He said that's our one freebie and we probably should put up a sign. So we put up a couple of signs. I put up the signs and then 20 minutes went by and I watched somebody walk right past the sign and walk over the guardrail and do it anyways. So, you know, I don't know if people just, they didn't read the sign, they just kept walking, they were looking at their cell phone. But, you know, I'm assuming that the signs will do their duty, which is just to tell people not to climb over the wall. There's some future work planned. I'm currently working with traffic and engineering on talking about where to put the crosswalks and curb cuts and all sorts of ADA access. We've gotten a number of number of feedback comments about we closed the entrance of the park down closest to Tyler Road, Johnson Road, whatever those roads are down there. Yeah, with anticipation of extending the sidewalk up to the main entrance, the super main entrance opposite Jackson Road to concentrate a single crossing point at that location because you wouldn't put a crosswalk Because there is one at further down at Tyler road. So, you know, traffic said they only place them so so many streets apart, they wouldn't necessarily do one every street, so. So my goal is to eventually incorporate all the improvements necessary to make the park totally accessible and safe at all seasons. The cost for opening up the wall, opening because people are suggesting it's just going to be easier to open up the wall than to put in all these improvements. It's the same cost to put in the sidewalk, the crossings, and the curb cuts that it is for the contractor to come back, remobilize, and open that hole in the wall. So I would think that public safety and ADA accessibility far outweighs having an opening at that wall in that location.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Well, the other issue too was, you know, pedestrians crossing over private property over that gentleman's driveway to get into the park. And frankly, the DPW didn't like that access either, because they have to drive over his driveway to get into the park. So it was closed off for several reasons. The new opening was created in conjunction with the property owner and the DPW saying where they wanted the access in to be able to mow the grass.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Right. And we did put it opposite Jackson Road so that if DPW needed to get a large piece of equipment in there, i.e. like maybe a tree trimming truck, that they can come right down Jackson Road without having to make a wide swing off of Grove Street, you know, so that the approach is everything there. And, you know, we did leave space, you know, some people were saying, oh, we left space on the side with the neighbor's driveway. And, you know, what we did was we left access so we could access the wall if we ever needed to maintain it without having to transfer us on private property. So although it may look like, you know, we provided an area for the neighbors to park, we actually just made it so that you can access the wall on that side. I don't know if people saw my news article, but I'm pretty confident that the pieces of the wall down at the Southern end of the park are the granite arch to bridge that once went over the Middlesex Canal. Contractors found several pieces of the arch stones that seemed to be a border on either. If you look at the pictures that I sent out, there was a border at the very top and There are small sections of it. There's not the whole bridge in the wall, but definitely portions of it were that. And it looks to be, the wall looks to have appeared around the same time that that was torn down. So I thought that was a neat little find. Um, so we're working on Jen and Kit and I are working on a small grant for the CPC. So that's coming. We'll probably get that done on the next like week or so. Maybe Jen, we got a lot on our plate, but let's, let's just hammer it out. It's mostly done. Uh, we just have to talk about the latest, um, CPC like plans and how the project relates to those. But I looked at that today and it seems very easy to correlate the two. And then we have the big project. I'm working to get some numbers on tree trimming. So deadwood removal, et cetera, to make the park safe and trim up the historic trees to make them safe. We might do some selective invasives removing, but that's about it. No clear cutting. You know, and I know that's a concern of the neighbors is how much tree work is being done. So it's just to make the park safe right now. The park is somewhat safe, but it could be much safer with all the deadwood removed. So, and that will encourage the older trees to also grow. So that's it for CPC projects. Anybody else have anything? Oh, Peter, you got Doug, you got stuff. Oh, there we go.
[Unidentified]: Oh yeah. Nice. It's pretty sharp. Wow.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, and he dressed up a lot of these stones, like the one that you're looking at right there at the front of the image. He dressed the corners and edges. They were raw and unfinished, so he just wanted to make sure that they were reflected what was originally done on the other stones. You can see the remains of that on the other stuff. Any other old business I missed? Any new business before we go to meeting minutes? Okay, Peter, meeting minutes, sent them out. Any questions, comments, concerns?
[Unidentified]: I'll take a motion to approve then. Motion to approve the meeting minutes. Second.
[Jenny Graham]: Second. I read all the way through and I couldn't remember anything else that happened.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Great, okay. Motion has been made and seconded. I'll go around the room for roll call, Jen.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I feel like I shouldn't vote because I wasn't at the last meeting.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Ah, you have to. Somebody's gotta vote. I mean, I guess I can vote.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Well, there's three people that can vote.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, there's not a, three's not a- All right, well, I mean, I'll vote, but I'm- No, it's fine, I can vote. Okay. Jeff?
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Peter?
[Unidentified]: Yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Doug?
[Unidentified]: Yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: And I'm a yes, so. 4-0-1 recused. Approved. Anything we missed? Otherwise, we'll take a motion to adjourn.
[Doug Carr]: One quick question. Did the letter go out for the one Madison Street site for that garage that we weren't interested in?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Not yet. I have to do that. It's on my list. I have it drafted. I just have to send it to Chad.
[Doug Carr]: That's fine. I noticed that he was here earlier. He's gone now. I told him it was coming. I think it's been good. I talked to him about when he gets an architect, feel free to come before the commission just for some friendly advice and professional design advice. He doesn't have to unless the building commission makes that call in terms of the changes to the roof line or whatever the design ends up being. So I think we'd like to at least take a look at that. And I think he's open to it. So it probably is a few months before it comes, We have the Form B if we need it for that site. So it's one of the ways, it was kind of a test I did just to kind of see how much we could accelerate the process just as a kind of independent test for somebody who was willing to pay for his own Form B to kind of move the process along faster, which is what happened in this case. What was the address on that? 1 Madison, it comes up against Placet Road, it's a corner lot. So it's fairly prominent.
[Jennifer Keenan]: We got an application, Peter, to demo the garage. It's just a concrete garage, so it wasn't on the agenda, but we're working on the letter to release that so they can demo the garage.
[Doug Carr]: And we knew the garage wasn't an issue because of its age and quality, but we thought the house addition that was coming would be something enough to generate a Form B. So I asked the guy if he would if he wanted to accelerate the process, if he would do it himself, and that's what he did. He commissioned his own Form B to save himself 30 days, like we talked about earlier in the meeting, if we need it. We may not need it at the end, but at least we have it. Okay.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Well, I think anytime... you know, getting the Form B is always good because we have the documentation, right? Like whatever happens to the building, there's a record of it being there. So I think anytime we can have a Form B versus not having a Form B, it's better to have it.
[Doug Carr]: We could also think about encouraging people to save our, you know, we could spend more money if people were willing to do the Form B themselves, right? We could save $10,000 a year and put that money somewhere else if we were willing to, again, for a faster process, would you pay for the Form B? That frees up a lot of money that we could use for more survey for other projects, other funding.
[Unidentified]: Just a thought. Yeah.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Doug and Jen, could you guys give me an update on, while I think of it, on the Brooks Estate and what's happening there?
[Jennifer Keenan]: I'm a bad liaison at the moment, because I haven't done squat. Our picnic is Saturday. And the stone pack got all done at the driveway. Doug, you probably know more than I do at this moment.
[Doug Carr]: Yeah, I walked up there today. Sorry, Sunday. And they, as a temporary fix for a pretty difficult road for around Atlanta, they put this product down called Stone Pack, which I actually had never used before. And it looks really good. It creates a nice smooth surface. It's easy to drive on. We had very uneven driving there and boulders sticking out of the ground. So it will, It will help improve the access around the manor, people walking and driving. That was something that we did for short dollars just in the last month. It was completed literally, I think today, from the email I got from Tom. But we're still re-engaging the landscape and civil engineers on the road design, which has gone on for years now. That's going to be a few more months to get that wrapped up. And then we have to go find the money to do something for the road.
[Jennifer Keenan]: But we might be putting in a smaller temporary parking with more stone pack because we were able to get a grant or just some money from the state.
[Doug Carr]: I think it was a line item in the budget. Yeah.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Um, so it was Sean Garbali and Zach worked, um, helped to get us some money so that we, we were debating on how we're going to use it, but, um, I think we're going to try to get a small, maybe not the full parking that we had in the master plan up there or with the access drive design, but maybe at least half of it, so that if we can get more people up there, then we can get more donations, more members, more visibility, so that people will be engaged to save and support the Brooks Estate.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Right. That last, that last 50 feet where you come up the hill and around the corner, it was always the problematic area where it always washed out. And that giant boulder in the road is, is, uh, was always a deterrent to driving up there. That's for sure.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I think that's where a lot of the stone pack is now that, um, just went in.
[Unidentified]: Yeah.
[Jennifer Keenan]: So take a, take a gander up there. If you guys are around this week and hopefully, hopefully the monsoon that happened in this afternoon, didn't wash it all the way already.
[Doug Carr]: I don't think so, that's pretty strong.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I am in the process of course, working with CPC projects for Thomas Brooks Park, but we got an email today from someone who was concerned about the Salem Street Burying Ground. And I myself am interested in maybe seeing some restoration work done at the Cross Street Cemetery portion of, Oak Grove Cemetery. So I am going to talk with the cemetery trustees, I think about maybe putting in a CPC application for the, we have a study on all the headstones at Salem Street. So we don't need to do that portion of the work. They could jump right into restoration of the headstones. We might have to have the consultant come back and just update which ones have kind of fallen apart over the, since they made the last set of repairs. Cause there's definitely some that we didn't do because of budget concerns, and we didn't have CPC at the time. We're going to need to do that study for the Cross Street Cemetery.
[Doug Carr]: Remember there was a CPC grant that did not make the cut this last round to restore the wall around the Salem Street burial ground, the brick wall with the sloped precast concrete cap, I believe. Uh, it, that kind of needs the same treatment that the Thomas Brooks, you know, the, the enslaved wall pumps wall is done. Not quite as old, obviously, uh, as that is. Um, but it, it didn't, I think we didn't have enough money. This is the first. The last couple of years is the first time we have the CPC has not been able to fund every project that they wanted to for the first three, four years we did. Um, but the competition's gotten steeper. there's there's more money because you know we get decent matches, but although this year might not be more like level funded. But what is this my question to you is what is the anticipated scope of the cross street cemetery, what did we want to do there what's the idea.
[Adam Hurtubise]: A lot of the headstones have fallen over and they're much unlike Salem Street where they're more durable slate because they're older. Those headstones are marble and they are a little bit more fragile and of course they've already been moved so as part of a movement process I'm sure that some of them got destroyed. So, a study of what the existing conditions are what are the headstones what's been documented there would be good and then conservation treatment plan on for the stones to stand up upright. make them sound and maybe address the wall around it. It seems like it's in fairly good condition, but to address the wall as kind of a part of that project would be good at the same time. I had wondered about the Salem Street Cemetery, whether you guys had thought maybe the wall work was more maintenance than preservation, because the wall was not really an original feature.
[Doug Carr]: of we did debate that it was because it was because it was it was more than maintenance because we were going to restore that wall and do more than just repair it um so that that was that was that was debated amongst the commission the commission the committee excuse me so that you're not the first person to to challenge that because it did look like it was on that line but i thought with the way they were going to do it the way we would want to do it is you know, not a repair, but it would have to that level that you took the wall with the flashing and the, the underneath the cap and all of that, that's a true restoration and missing bricks and all that matching the brick, including historic mortar, which they would need to do research on. So that, that was going to raise that cost. And that may have contributed to why it didn't get make the cut.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, the copper cap flashing, what I'm told, is what will help conserve that wall. I'm sure there was a lead-based flashing under there that wasn't doing it. I'm sure that the same type of flashing is under the Salem Street wall, having seen some of the top cap unflashed. But to really do it right, to make sure it protects it, that will be the right way to do it.
[Doug Carr]: Absolutely.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah. I mean, I, you know, and I, I want to keep Salem street at a, you know, I don't want to ignore it. I want to make sure that it stays preserved. So now would be the time, you know, it's, I don't know, it's been at least 10 years since that project was done. So, you know, we should make sure to see what worked, what didn't work with the restoration of those stones and, you know, try to get that done at the same time, you know, and there are other, There are other channels that we can use. Maybe that would be a good one to partner up with some of the city's grants for recreation. And, you know, maybe there's something for, from the state level too with DCR because DCR has used to put out books on how to conserve historic cemeteries and the like. So yeah. Good, I think we have a number of projects on our hands, so it will be busy, busy.
[Doug Carr]: That's an understatement.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, so.
[Doug Carr]: And the conversation about changing the name of the park to end the plaque on the slave wall to something that's more appropriate is a longer term discussion, I think. Yep.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, great. Yes, that'll keep moving down the pipeline.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, I'll take a motion to adjourn. Motion to adjourn, 8.09. And a second?
[Adam Hurtubise]: And roll call, Jen?
[Unidentified]: Yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Jess? Yes. Peter? Yes. Doug? Yes. Great, all set. Thank you all. Nice short meeting. I'll see you next month. See you in August.
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