[Adam Hurtubise]: All right, this is the Medford Historical Commission meeting for October 16th, 2023. I'll call the meeting to order at 7.03 p.m. I'll begin by reading the governor's blurb. On March 29th, 2023, Governor Healey signed into law a supplemental budget bill, which among other things, extends the temporary provisions pertaining to the open meeting law to March 31st, 2025, Specifically, this further extension allows public bodies to continue holding meetings remotely without a quorum of the public body physically present at a meeting location and to provide adequate alternative access to remote meetings. The language does not make any substantive changes to the open meeting law other than extending the expiration date of the temporary provisions regarding the remote meetings from March 31st, 2023 to March 31st, 2025. Okay, we have up on the agenda tonight. First up, 56 Wareham Street. Is there anybody here from 56 Wareham Street to drop off application? All right, hearing none, we'll table that. If we receive, I'm gonna remove it from the agenda, and if we receive the information, we'll act on it accordingly. For the next three items, 69 Court Street, 587 Winthrop Street, and 64 Myrtle Street will be receiving the demolition applications and then moving right to a determination of significance. In the case of that, the historical commission is determining whether or not a building is either been listed on the National Register of Historic Places or has been listed on the Massachusetts Register of Historic Places or was built 75 years or older determined by the commission to be significant either because it is importantly associated with one or more historic or events, or with a broad architectural, cultural, political, economic, or social history of the city or the Commonwealth, or it is historically or architecturally important in terms of period style, method of building construction, or association with an important architect or builder, either by itself or in the context of a group of buildings. So the way these meetings work is that we will We had the MHC form Bs prepared for each one of these structures. They're available on our website at medfordhistoricalcommission.org, and you can go on our blog and follow along. We use the MHC forms to make our determinations. We'll have commissioner comments. If there's any comments from the applicants, have those afterwards. We'll wrap up with finalizing any motions, and then we'll move forward accordingly based on how those motions pass. So the first item up on the agenda tonight is 6769 Court Street. Commissioners, I sent around the demolition application. If that application is in order, we can take that application as complete and move right to the termination of significance for both the house and carriage house.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Okay, so we're making two separate determinations.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, you would first accept the application and once the application is determined, complete and accepted, then we can move right into the termination of significance.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Motion to accept the application for the house and the carriage house for 6769 Court Street.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Second. Peter Miller, second. Okay, go around the room, roll call vote. As I see you, Peter.
[Unidentified]: Yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Jen?
[Unidentified]: Yes. Jess? Yes. And Doug? Yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, great. Motion passes 4-0. So I need a motion one way or the other to kickstart the discussion for determination of significance.
[Unidentified]: Anybody? I can't make it on the chair.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I will motion to find we're going to do them one at a time or no we'll take them together.
[Adam Hurtubise]: It's a complete it's a complete demolition package so we'll just take them together.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I'll make a motion to find no actually I'm going to refrain. Sorry, that's okay.
[Unidentified]: Doug, Peter, Jess, anything to get it on the table?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Go ahead, Peter. I can move to make a motion to find 67 to 69 Court Street significant Okay, thank you. Our second. Okay, great. Motion's been made and seconded. Peter, do you want to kickstart discussion? I mean, I'm on the fence about this one. I was gonna qualify my motion to say that I'm probably not gonna find it significant myself, but this gets too wordy. I think this house has been altered a lot, and I don't feel like it rises to the level of being historically significant. That's really how I feel about it. Thank you.
[Doug Carr]: Doug? To me, this is actually a little bit more of a close call because I do feel that the additions over the last 50 years have made the house more interesting, telling a longer story than just the original house did. unique additions in the back, especially when you look at the photos of the back of the building. I think there's some really interesting things going on there that I don't think I see in most typical houses. The additions are dwarfed the original house by quite a bit, and they're, I guess, unique architectural features with the curved base and the strange root shapes. It's just really a composite that I think is worth just taking a little closer look at.
[Unidentified]: I'm not sure if that's the right way to put it.
[Jenny Graham]: I'm not sure if that's the right way to put it. I'm not sure if that's the right way to put it. I'm not sure if that's the right way to put it. I'm not sure if that's the right way to put it. I'm not sure if that's the right way to put it. I'm not sure if that's the right way to put it. I'm not sure if that's the right way to put it. I'm not sure if that's the right way to put it. I'm not sure if that's the right way to put it.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Jen, are you going to abstain from the conversation?
[Jennifer Keenan]: I am going to abstain from the conversation on this one because I sold the house next door and I have a very distant relationship to the neighbor, so I will refrain.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, perfect. I'm just going to add my two cents on this particular one. I'm mainly interested in both the house and the carriage house and the fact that they survive in any sort of condition. You know, the main house dates to 1846. I find it extremely unusual that John Clemson was able to dig up the builder, but it seems like John Chase built a series of buildings in a row here that are memorialized on the deeds. So I found that kind of interesting, you know, there are other better preserved examples of this particular type of building, but they're diminishing with everyone that we let go. I think we discussed how many pre-1900 buildings there are in the city. There's less than like 2,000 pre-1900 buildings. There's even less than that number, probably 500 pre-1855 buildings, and of that only a handful of them are 18th and 17th century. So this is in a For me, this is just in a little tight little pool of buildings that are irreplaceable at this point and represent Medford's kind of greatest period of growth before the Civil War. So, you know, and the carriage house. Yeah, it's less interesting, you know, it's more of a typical style. But again, the fact that it survives with the house itself is kind of interesting. And that doesn't take into account what I perceive as being a really cool addition in the back. But, you know, it could be completely devastated on the inside. But I'm not looking at it from that. I'm just looking at what I see from the outside and the historic fabric. And it's to me, it's still readable, still understandable what it was. I think it's worthy at least of a pause to consider the demolition of this building.
[Doug Carr]: Ryan, if I could add to that. I didn't mention the carriage house in my initial comments, but when you look at the sheer volume of square footage that's existing on this site between the carriage house and I know it's in tough shape, we don't really look at that from an evaluation perspective. But there's the ability here to have at least the original house, the very large addition, and the carriage house. And my understanding is that this is being considered for a complete demolition. Is that correct?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yes, that's what's on the application.
[Doug Carr]: Yeah, and it's me. It's a little disappointing that there might not be a creative way to renovate, even gutting the buildings, even the newer one, if that's what's required, because it's probably very dated if it's from the 80s or early 90s depending on what it is. I do agree with you. I think there's a little bit of a pause here. It wouldn't be a bad thing just to see if there's an opportunity because it's going to cost many hundreds of thousands of dollars to take this all down and build a brand new two-family, which presumably is larger, but I'm just trying to imagine how much larger it could be given the amount of square footage on this site between the three structures.
[Unidentified]: Great. Having heard from all the commissioners, any comment from the homeowner or applicant? Do you want to know why I want to do this?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Sure. Denise, if you would just name for the record and the address, please.
[Unidentified]: Denise Rogier, 69 Court Street. All right, floor is yours.
[Adrianne Appel]: This has been something that I've been looking at for the past couple of years. So my plans from two years ago to what they are now are a little bit smaller. What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to stay in the house. When we first put the addition on the back, back in the 80s, My family was young and everything like that. What happened is over the years, my husband ended up with cancer. And so for the 20 years that we lived here before he passed away, we ended up more or less on one floor. So after that happened, my father came and stayed with me for a while. Again, using the first floor for everything, which means using the living room as a bedroom. So what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to change the house around so I can have everything on one floor front to back. So as I get older, I can stay here.
[Adam Hurtubise]: So just to summarize for Doug, clean slate that allows an easier age in place rebuild.
[Adrianne Appel]: That's that's it.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, I think that's I think that's an appropriate summary.
[Adrianne Appel]: Yeah. So, but I do understand what you're looking at is the back of the house the addition we put on is pretty interesting, but did some. It's not working. Talking to a couple of construction people, they said it would be easier to rip everything down and go from there and just rebuild the whole thing. Of course, going back two years ago, things were a little bit different and I'm having a little bit of a different view now. I'm trying to think of some way of taking the front of the house off, the old part, and maybe work it in to the back of the house.
[Unidentified]: Does that answer your question?
[Doug Carr]: It does. Thank you very much for the explanation. I think that's what I would say is that's the point of this process is to pause and say, is there a different way to do it that gets you what you need? We want to get you what you need to function in that house. That is absolutely 100 percent in favor of what you're trying to do here. I think it's fantastic. It sounds like do you want to think about it or do a little bit more planning so that maybe you could come back with a plan that oddly enough keeps the house that's from the 80s and redesigns or maybe makes a second floor of the front house that could give you what you need without having to start over with a clean slate? Is that a possibility?
[Adrianne Appel]: Are you asking if I could come back with better plans?
[Doug Carr]: Well, it sounds like your plans have changed, right? And yes, a complete demolition.
[Adrianne Appel]: Yes, they have. The plans I've already submitted down to City Hall. They're tearing the whole house down and actually putting a garage in the front of the house because that's one of the things I want is a garage. I was trying to make it so I would still have some space in the back to use as yard without putting the garage back there. But we've been talking, I've been talking to the architect a little bit and seeing if we can change things around. So if you think it would be best if I come back with something a little bit different.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I mean, we haven't had the chance to when we received the demo notice, it was just the demolition application. So we haven't seen any of the plans. So I think this process has to keep moving forward. But as it does, I think we can take into account and a review of your plans if you want to send them to us just so we can see where you are at and see where we can go while this process moves along.
[Unidentified]: OK, OK, yeah, great.
[Adrianne Appel]: But my big thing is I just want to make sure that as far as the front of the house goes, the part that's old and historical, I really can't save any of that. That has to go. Got it. Also the same thing with the shed in the backyard. You refer to it as a carriage house. We used to call it the barn. The barn, yeah. It's only standing because it's in tough shape.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I believe you.
[Adrianne Appel]: My husband passed away in 2016 and I haven't been in there since. I don't even want to go in there. So that's really something, there's no way I can save that.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, well commissioners, let's circle back to the motion on the table just so we can complete this and then depending on how the vote goes, we'll determine what the next steps are. So just so everybody's clear, a motion was made to find for significance. It was motioned by Peter Miller, seconded by Doug Carr, so a motion of yes would find for significance, motion of no would not find for significance. So I'll go around as I see people on the table. Peter? No. And Jen, you're abstaining?
[Unidentified]: Abstain. Yep, Jess? Yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Doug?
[Doug Carr]: I'm just interested in exploring the design and helping it just make sure that it's great and is exactly what what the owner wants and what the neighborhood needs as well I think I think there's a clear path there so yes, but I'm not interested in going beyond
[Adam Hurtubise]: So what we will do is, because the next step is the public hearing will put together the legal notice and it'll get published in the paper, and we'll meet next month with that public hearing, there's a sign requirement which will send out that has to be put up on the property because the demolition and. Okay. So we'll have a chance to review it at the next meeting. If you want to send over your plans beforehand. So the commissioners have a chance to review it and provide any feedback. And then from there, we'll discuss it at the next meeting. Okay. All right. Thank you. Okay. Ed is joining us just for the record. The agenda is 587 Winthrop Street. Commissioners, same deal. I sent around the demolition application. We need a motion to accept the application as complete. And once we do that, we can go right into determination of significance.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Motion to accept the application for 587 Winthrop Street. Seconded.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I guess I'll give that one to Jess. I heard her before. Yep, Jess can have that. All right, I'll go around the room as I see you, Peter.
[Unidentified]: Yes. Jen? Yes. Jess? Yes. Ed?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: As to form, yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Doug?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, motion passes 5-0. I need a motion to approve the, no, I need a motion for determination of significance, please.
[Unidentified]: and just be to get out on the table, you can change your mind afterwards. I will move. Go ahead, Ed.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: I will move for significance, although I'd like to understand what the application is looking to do, so.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Sure. And a second? Second. Okay. For point of clarification, this is an extensive renovation that's going to result in the house not looking anything like it does now. Main forward mass is staying. There's a rear L that's being completely demolished and a new rear addition being put on. Based on the architectural plans, it seems like all new finishes applied to the building's exterior. One question on the proposed plans. Did it seem to you as if the entire roof was being raised?
[Unidentified]: I didn't notice that, but I will look at it. It's possible.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Is a proponent on the call so we can ask, confirm, or the architect? the architect or owner from Winthrop Street here, if you are, can you raise your hand?
[SPEAKER_06]: Hello.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Hi there. Can you just clarify, is the plan to raise the roof on the forward portion of the house?
[SPEAKER_06]: I think so. Right now, there is not much space just because it's like So it's going to be a little bit like a vaulted so that there'll be enough room upstairs.
[Adam Hurtubise]: So that means that all the front detail will be obliterated because the entire roof will be taken off, right? Right. Yeah, okay. Any other questions for the commissioners, from the commissioners?
[Doug Carr]: Yeah, is the new roof, how many feet higher is it? And is it the same slope as the existing roof from the front of the house?
[SPEAKER_06]: Is that a question to me? Yes, please. I wish the architect was here. As far as I know, we are going up to the limit that the ridge height allows. So that's about I know.
[Doug Carr]: Ryan do we have the existing oh sorry the proposed drawings um from the proponents so we could see them on screen we could probably look at it pretty quickly and judge um you know it sounds like it would be like yeah i have a predisposed four or five feet higher than it is now um go ahead peter if you want to share if you can yeah it's the i will it it's up there yeah
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, it's yeah, it's a it's a few feet higher dog, I would say you're you're I think you're completely right they're going from a new wall construction to full height so. It's not letting me for some reason so. Hold on either that I'm doing something wrong here.
[Doug Carr]: Well, while you're doing that Peter, I guess the obvious question I would have and again, maybe the owner here can't answer this, but it seems like. We've done this before, Peter, when we've had buildings that have wanted to get a little bit more headroom. We've tried to recreate the look in the front of the building as much as possible to maintain a look and still get the owner what he or she are looking for in terms of square footage and headroom and all that. But the front of this house with these boards are really beautiful and I would hate to lose them. Can you guys see it? I'm sorry.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: I can see it in the photos, yeah. I'm looking at the application photos.
[Unidentified]: I screwed something up here. Okay.
[Adam Hurtubise]: So can you see this? Yes. Yes. Okay. So that's the new front elevation. I think this line here is still the little lower front part extant, I believe. At least that's what it looks like on the side elevation. And then this is the raised up part of the back or front facade. So you can see that this, the other, the knee wall here is about like a three or four foot knee wall that starts about here. So they've raised it up about, you know, four feet or something. And then this is the addition here.
[Doug Carr]: Might even be five feet, but I, but I see that the detail in the front there, that, that, inverted T-shape is an attempt, I think, to have a little bit of character of the vintages of the property. Is that a fair statement, Peter or Ryan or anyone?
[Adam Hurtubise]: It's a facsimile thereof, I would say. I mean, there's the real house. It seems to at least try to mimic it to some degree, but.
[SPEAKER_06]: May I say something?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. So the trim that you are referring is, it's just like a board cut out in like a steps. So it is, it just looks a little different, but it's just a trim.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Right. These triangles here.
[SPEAKER_06]: Right. It's just like, uh, you know, when you take a piece of a board and you cut it into steps, that's how it's going to look. So, uh, that's how it is there.
[Adam Hurtubise]: There's also this little element. I don't know what you call it. It's like a downward. Yeah. So anyway. Yeah, this probably had a finial on each end. Usually with the Gothic styles, they have like a pointed finial that extends above the roof line. And, you know, usually when the roof gets done over, they get thrown away. Right. Anyway, so.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I guess my hope is that. Yeah. No, go ahead. Yeah, my hope is.
[Doug Carr]: I think it's a reasonable proposal. I just think it's one of the most significant features of the house. If there's any way it could be recreated or saved and moved on and maybe recreated in the addition just to tie the new house and the new interpretation of the house to the existing, that's all I'd be looking for. I think the rest of the design is actually quite good and it gives the owner what they're looking for in terms of additional living space. The scale I think is okay. It's not out of scale with many buildings in Medford of this vintage. I guess that would be my request. I don't want to slow down the process, but it's a relatively simple way to just tie the new design to the old design if that's possible. I would put that question to the owner.
[SPEAKER_06]: I'll try my best. It's really easy thing to do. And I think like it will look nicer, nice too. I agree with you. So unless like it's really like it doesn't look good, I'll try my best to get it done.
[Doug Carr]: Okay. Appreciate it. Thank you much. I can't imagine it not looking pretty good because it looks, it's been looking good for 150 years. Right.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I'm going to stop my sharing. Yes, Peter, please. Thank you. Okay, we'll circle back to discussion of significance. So the motion was made by Jen seconded by Jess. So we'll start with Jen. You want to kickstart the discussion on significance.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I'm actually this actually doesn't besides the age. I didn't find anything overly exciting about this. So my intention is to vote now. I think there's plenty of other examples of the style of house around Medford. And I don't know that. Yeah, this one just didn't rise to the occasion for me.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Got it. And just
[Jenny Graham]: I agree that the details on the front should be preserved if possible, but also agree with Jen on this one, even though the age is fairly significant as well. Okay, and Ed?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: I guess I'm also drifting with the other two. I would agree that the roof treatments If you could save it, when you raise the roof, it's worthwhile. But this building has had a long history of changes, which is, with the exception of the roof line, hard to recognize what it was 100 years ago. Got it. And Peter?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, this one, I'm on the fence about this one too. I see both viewpoints, but I do like that detail. I feel like it's unique for Medford and I think, well, I don't know if it's totally unique, but it's something that I haven't seen before in Medford. It's kind of interesting. I don't know if it's super successful, but it's certainly interesting. So, I kind of feel like I would miss that. So I guess that would be my basis for proceeding kind of like Doug felt on the last project, I guess, is that I would love to pause and see if the owner can maybe incorporate some of that detail a little bit more accurately or whatever, or maybe something that hearkens to that, but is better, I don't know. But I'm for a pause.
[Unidentified]: I don't know if I'd go all the way to preferably preserve, but. And Doug.
[Doug Carr]: Yeah, I think just to recap my position, again, I think this is a good project. I think I want it to go forward. I like the owner to obviously make every effort he can to preserve that piece, just to tie the buildings together. I don't think it's a big cost. Since it's literally existing, just don't throw it away and see if you can reinstall it and then recreate it in the other one. To me, it would do that. I don't really want to slow the process, but I'd love to see a good faith effort to make that happen. Then I think I'm good to go on this.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, great. I don't think that there's too many of these houses with that bargeboard trim anymore. I've only seen a couple on Pleasant Street, and those ones were a little bit more intricate. The one that comes to mind is the one on the corner of Pleasant and Daniels, where it comes to a much more sharper point, and it actually got a cut out of an acorn on the end of each individual piece, projecting piece. So they can be a lot more decorative than this is. But this is what I see is just like simple but effective decoration where it really screams like cottage Gothic, even though it's been changed to probably originally had clapboards. But it, you know, the materiality seen in the shingles is kind of cool. So I think it will, you know, even if it's renovated, I think it would be nice to have those details echoed in the new house. All right, motion's been made and seconded. We'll go around the room for significance. So again, the motion was made for significance. So a vote yes would find for significance and move it to the public hearing. Vote no sends them on their way. So I'll start with Peter.
[Unidentified]: Yes. And Jen? No. And Jess? No. Okay, and Ed?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: reluctantly no.
[Adam Hurtubise]: And Doug?
[Doug Carr]: Yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay. Motion fails 3-2-2, so it is not significant. So I will put the letter together in that regard and they will be on their way. Hey Rabindra, one question for you. Yes, sir. Is your address 3 Whispering Hill Road, Wilbur?
[SPEAKER_06]: Yes, please. Okay, thank you. You're welcome.
[Doug Carr]: And who is the architect? I wonder if we've seen him or her before, before this commission.
[SPEAKER_06]: His name is Jeff Moriarty, I think. Last name, I'm a little... But his office is in Saugus. I'm sure he has worked multiple projects in Medford. So he knows many of the city people and stuff.
[Doug Carr]: sure if you could just talk to him and see what's possible, we'd appreciate it. But thank you. Sure.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, great. Next up is 64 Myrtle Street. I need a motion to accept the application as complete. Thank you. Have a good night.
[SPEAKER_06]: You too.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I need a motion to accept the application as complete.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Motion to accept the application and the second.
[Unidentified]: second.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Going around the room, Peter?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes as to form.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Doug?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, motion approved 5-0. Need a motion for significance.
[Jennifer Keenan]: I'll make a motion to find for significance.
[Unidentified]: But my intention is to vote now. Second, second. Sorry, Doug, you got it.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, motion has been made for significance discussion Jen go.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Again, I think with the similar to the last one, besides the age of this property, I didn't feel there was anything particularly interesting about it, either the structure itself or kind of the narrative of the folks that lived there. And I think there are other better examples around town of Italian days. So I will leave it at that.
[Adam Hurtubise]: All right, Ed.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Again, I would say that even accepting that some of the changes were entirely consistent with what was being done when the changes were made, there's not a lot there left which speaks to the word significant.
[Unidentified]: Peter?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, I just wanted to point out this one. He did check the box about recommended listing for National Register, although it's, again, for the possible future historic district. Yeah, so I don't know. I thought that was interesting about these three brotherly carpenters or whatever and about the Perry Holdings there. It's an interesting history, but the house itself is just really denuded, so that's kind of a negative. I didn't see too much extant detail. So even though I thought the history was pretty interesting, I feel like the house itself kind of weighs it down and doesn't do it for me. So anyway. Yeah. I, yeah, I have some thoughts. I'll save them till the very end. Jess.
[Jenny Graham]: I don't have much to add. I agree particularly with Peter. Okay. Doug.
[Doug Carr]: I always love Peter's description because they're so vivid. But the, I agree that this house I actually, I was surprised to see it contributing to a potential district because I just, I couldn't see that either so I'm, I'm a pretty hard known this one I don't, I just don't see anything here.
[Adam Hurtubise]: All right, um, I'm just gonna swing this around real quick, and I think the best option for this building is to document it and let it go. In my opinion, I'm only asking for documentation, which I'm perfectly help. interested in volunteering to complete myself because Horatio Williams is mentioned on this form. Horatio Williams built the 14 or so residential buildings just to the west of this location. And it was a neat little enclave called Williamsburg. And it's hard to imagine, but when it was first laid out, it was laid out in the middle of a 200 acre forest. So it was literally in the middle of nowhere at one time. And this particular building, the square box is shown with like at the tail end of that development on a plan that was prepared sometime after the Civil War advertising these buildings. possible that this was moved. Deeds talk about this particular building. There was either a building here that left and was exchanged with this building. Something's up with it. So I'm interested in looking at the framing, which I know is one of the reasons why it's coming down. And just to answer a few questions, one of which is, did this house originally have a cupola because it's tiny and it screams like it might have had a cuckoo at one time. So I'm not really interested in seeing it preserved. I think the owners will do a great job rebuilding it into something new. But I would like to at least give it the option to have it architecturally documented so we can do some reconstruction to figure out what it was and just have that for the record. And if it is, it will be clear whether it's Williams right away, because if you walk in and it's two by four construction or less, they were really early experimenters with just how light you could really take light timber framing. Keep in mind that 1855 is right in that transition point between the big giant Greek revivals that are still using heavy timbers and these later lighter balloon frame buildings.
[Unidentified]: Great, so with that, anything from the owners? All right, hearing nothing.
[SPEAKER_07]: Is this Myrtle Street you're talking about? Yes. Yes. Oh, I'm actually one of the, he doesn't have his speaker on, my partner. No, it is balloon frame, we're two by threes.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, so that that makes perfect sense.
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, but there's nothing it's it's so bad. We try to salvage it. We got it it. And I had a structural engineer come in, he goes, you can't rebuild it. He says, it's not going to happen. And then, you know, architecturally, I mean, I've done houses 1680 and, you know, and I love the old stuff. I mean, and I liked the obscured glass in the windows. I mean, this has all been, it was all redone. pretty poorly, they hacked away everything. So, but no, the owners aren't here, I'm here and my partner Bill, he's up on the top of the screen, but his volume's off.
[SPEAKER_09]: Can you hear me? Yeah, we heard you Bill. I'm sorry, this is my very first Zoom call in my life. I'm with you. Good, you've been doing good.
[Adam Hurtubise]: We've been seeing you follow along, so. Okay. Great. Any questions for us before we move forward with this vote?
[SPEAKER_07]: No, I tell you, it'll look nice and you see the drawings, it'll be pretty. Yep. And the neighbors love it.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, and no opposition to us taking some field measurements and just going through the property before it comes down. Yep. Okay, great. I can schedule that with you guys. I literally live like, you know, 20 steps away. So I'm happy to come by and get that done and over with ASAP.
[SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, great. So I'll reach out.
[SPEAKER_09]: Okay. Can I just ask a question? Sure, it's been kind of a long haul for us. We've been going at it like 5 months. We got hung up with the storm water drains with civil engineering and we're trying to get things going before the cold weather. So is there a possibility that this could happen like within 30 days or something like that? Yeah.
[Adam Hurtubise]: So if the vote goes the way that based on the commissioner's feedback, then I will prepare a letter by the end of this week, sign off on the building department. And ideally, if you guys are available, I'll come in and do my field measurements sometime between now and the end of the week. Awesome. So yes.
[SPEAKER_09]: More than that. Yeah.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah. So that's the game plan, I think. Any other questions? No, thank you. Anthony, could you tell me your address just for the record?
[SPEAKER_07]: My address is 71 Messenger Street, apartment 928 in Plainville, Mass.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Thank you. With no further questions, I'll go around the room again. Motion was made for significance, so a yes vote would find for significance, no vote is no. So Peter? No. And Jen?
[Jennifer Keenan]: No.
[Adam Hurtubise]: And Jess?
[Jennifer Keenan]: No.
[Adam Hurtubise]: And Ed? No. And Doug? No. Okay, motion fails 5-0. So I will get that letter together and we will go from there and I will reach out to the both of the builder and the attorney and set up a time to get that done and over with and we'll go from there.
[SPEAKER_07]: All right, thank you. Thank you.
[SPEAKER_09]: Have a good night. You too. Thank you.
[Unidentified]: Okay, any other new business before I move to old business? Okay, hearing none properties under demo delay.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I haven't heard anything from the carriage house. So and I think that's the only one that's currently under delay at this point.
[Unidentified]: So for permit and subcommittee, Jen, I think we can probably remove that from the from the agenda in the future. I don't I don't have anything to add at this point on
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, we can we can talk about that. I think until we have a new commissioner. Yeah, we can probably table that.
[Adam Hurtubise]: CLG annual report went in for this year. There was some feedback from the Massachusetts Historical Commission. They just want to make sure that we work with the Historic District Commission and do a better job. There were some concerning things, but and I have to go back and revisit the last two years, I would love a little help to put it together. It's very easy to do, but it just takes some time to put together. And some of it's, I just need some help doing our stuff while I help the HTC take care of their stuff. if I can have a volunteer. And you can just reach out to me via email. I'm not gonna harp on it now. But if anybody wants to take some time, all this stuff is basically there. We just have to summarize it and put it in a few sheets and you can do it. You can do it from anywhere because all the information is digital. So if that makes it any easier on anybody. So, and then we should be back in compliance with the feds and then we'll just have to stay on top of it. For Cross Street Cemetery, I have a couple of different updates. Let's start with the stone study. I am in the process of working with a stone conservator out of Concord, Massachusetts. They are very interested in preparing both the repair work and then doing the actual repair work. The one hang-up that we're waiting on right now is we're looking for construction information to see if the headstones were set in concrete when they were relocated. If they were, it will make preservation infinitely more difficult and it will have to tackle it in a different manner, but we're hoping they were done in a more traditional manner, which is simply they would pour a foundation and then leave a standard size slot and stick the stone in it when it was all said and done. Where if we can't figure it out above ground we're just going to have to dig a hole and check the foundation of the stone and then that will give the consultants the information they need to give us a proposal for work. They did say that the cost was going to be somewhere in the $10,000 range but not not in excess of that and then we would go and talk to the cemetery trustees about funding that work either in this year or next fiscal year so we can get that on the catalog. But the consultants are very nice and they were you know very helpful and very knowledgeable and were very interested in our cemetery so I appreciate that. So I'm looking forward to working with the trustees of the cemetery to get that cemetery restored. It will be a multi-year, but we're going to try to tackle the, a lot of the stones are in dire condition and many of them are missing as per inventory, but they may just be broken and buried underground basically at the relocated cemetery. So that remains to be seen. We'll try to figure that out after we figure out the base item. There's definitely a couple of them that are semi-submerged. Yeah. It's a cool place. Yeah, yeah. So there's that. That's in the process. Out of that came the archaeological study. So if I didn't mention it before, the city of Medford actually owns a portion of the old Cross Street Cemetery and it's coming up for redevelopment. So it is a piece, if you're looking at the backside of City Hall, if you turn 90 degrees and look at the space between 101 George P. Hassett Drive and the Hyatt, when you look directly at 93 and you're staring at the commuter lot, that is the backside of Cross Street Cemetery. So we're a little bit concerned that the number of or reported removals, which dates to 1956 in approximately 525 bodies does not match up with the 1200 to 1400 internments that were supposedly recorded at the cemetery so in an effort to avert disaster, I'm. pushing the city, especially the planning department who is advocating for the development of these parcels to do some due diligence and fund an archaeological study, and then go in the ground to make sure that there's nothing in the ground. I've put in a public records request with some of the state departments to try to get information, it's been a little over a month, I haven't heard anything, so I don't know but the information may be out there, it may just have to go pal may have to just chase it so I've given the city. both the mayor and Alicia's office, a rough summary of the project. I suggested they fund an approximate $20,000 project, 10 of that goes to PAL for their study report, and some additional money for a site survey so that they can earmark the actual boundaries of the cemetery lot, and maybe a little bit of extra money for contingency for something like ground penetrating radar to save them excavation before they actually get in the ground. So. So that's my base summary of that. I'm hoping that the city acts on it. I haven't heard anything after I dropped the news, but I gave them a clean and concise summary. And I hope that they decide to move forward with it because if it's, you know, it's slated to become some sort of parking garage and rec center and some sort of big building. So it would just to avoid any sort of disaster there.
[Unidentified]: We wanna make sure that there's nothing there. questions.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay, next up then, the archaeological cap. I don't have an update yet. I will circle back with Teresa to see where she was at with setting up accounts, but I'm hoping to get Peter under contract within the next week. She did say it would be somewhere in this time frame, so I'm hoping to get Peter going on that project and we can start with a loose design to then start engaging some of the stakeholders, particularly We need to talk with the parks department because they're the ones that actually manage the site, make sure they're okay with it. And then, you know, we'll talk with the West Medford Community Center community and just kind of broaden the ring from there.
[Unidentified]: So that's in the works.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Doug, haven't heard anything yet for CPC project for Thomas Brooks Park phase two, assuming meetings will be coming up on that.
[Doug Carr]: Yes, there's going to be meetings in November and December for most November ones will be the city of Medford driven ones, which I think we would qualify on. And then the other ones will be the nonprofits and other ones in December. So I think you'll look at a November hearing to present the project.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Great. I may ask what is an archaeological cap?
[Adam Hurtubise]: So it's not a monument, that's what it is. So we were told that monuments don't qualify under CPC, so we're calling whatever we put on top of this, which will be some sort of interpretive space, a preservation treatment that permanently protects the Thomas Brooks House site after we do a final round of archaeological investigations there. So basically, It can be anything we want it to be as long as it's not worded as a memorial, so I worded it as exactly what it was intended to be, which is to cap the archaeological site and protect it from unauthorized excavations because, you know, based on what we pulled out of the ground and what we might find, it might you know people might get the idea that they might want to pilfer and do their own digging there so and in fact we did have several times I don't know Jen how many times was that like five or six times we caught somebody through there with a metal detector so all right so so we're closer to plain English that's fine yeah yeah so
[SPEAKER_02]: Ryan, what was the reason they gave? Was it Teresa who said you can't build a monument?
[Adam Hurtubise]: It was Roberta who said that. They apparently must have some sort of state-level definition that they use that said that they can't use the word memorial.
[Doug Carr]: That's interesting because we've never had that in the five years of CPC. This has never come up, I don't believe.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, interpretive, you know, I envision it as like an interpretive plaza, less of a memorial, but just, you know, it has information, it has history, you know, not simply dedicated to any one particular person, so.
[Doug Carr]: But historical signage interpretation will be allowed, correct?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Oh, yeah, I think that's very much a part of it.
[Doug Carr]: Yep.
[Unidentified]: So, a great name.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Survey projects are moving along. I think I'm just waiting for the final survey product for the additional product that we're getting for the Brickyard slash Winter Hill neighborhood. It's in the area of Wareham Street, so we'll be getting a lot more information about that. I've got a final report due as soon as I have that in hand to the Massachusetts Historical Commission. The consultants have paid. and that project will be done. Once that's done, Fulton Heights will be back on the table for the consultant to get going on. And that's all I've got for existing information. Is there anything else I missed?
[Doug Carr]: Just one thing, Ryan. I sent an email to the gentleman who owns the 3036 Salem Streets about a couple of days ago. He remembered that we were instrumental in helping move that along and refine the design. He did a great job. But the piece that was missing was the canopy for what was the original cinema back in the- Marquee. Marquee, excuse me. Marquee. He said it's being worked on right now. He'll send us a completion date for the fabricator. I just emailed him. within 10 minutes ago asking to send a drawing because I'm just curious if it's the same size, if it's the same scale, just what it looks like compared to the original. We're grateful to have anything, I think, but it'd be nice if it was in the spirit of what was there for, I don't know what it was, 70, 80, 90 years probably. We'll chase that down as we get closer.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Great. Yeah. I'm hopeful that he's going to I'm hopeful that he's going to actually deliver on that. I wasn't sure whether he was going to, but hopefully he's not just stringing us along and that they are fabricating it, because I'd love to see it. It really will complete that building.
[Doug Carr]: I agree. With the new restaurant across the street, the Salem Street is starting to really look like a place now.
[Jenny Graham]: Great. Jess? I had a different topic. Jen, if you were going to comment on this topic, you should go first.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah. I was just going to say that, Doug, those condos are not sold yet and the developer is still very much involved in that building. I don't know that we have to worry about him not getting back to us because he hasn't sold them all yet. I can keep you posted on that.
[Doug Carr]: Sure, absolutely. I take him at his word. We asked back in March and he said about six months. It's a little late, but construction is what construction is. We'll keep tabs on it, but I take him at his word.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Did you say that some of them are sold though?
[Jennifer Keenan]: Some of them are, but not all of them.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Are they inhabited? Do you know if they're inhabited?
[Jennifer Keenan]: Yeah, some of them have closed, so they should be.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I was just going to say, there's an entrance on the backside of the building, Peter. They have like their own elevator and everything. In the front are all the retail establishments.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: We should go over and tour them. So is there or is there not a C of O on there? Certificate of occupancy.
[Jennifer Keenan]: So they would have had to, they'll do them per unit and as they finish them and close them, yes.
[Unidentified]: Okay, great, any other comments on this topic?
[Jenny Graham]: All right, Jessica, go ahead. I was just gonna ask Brian, do you have like a due date for that data entry that you sent me for the cross street?
[Adam Hurtubise]: No, it would be helpful to have it by the time the consultants wanna start working on it, but we have to get the proposal and stuff, so maybe two months or so.
[Jenny Graham]: Okay, I'll keep chipping away at it. It's a lot of data entry. So I've started on it, but it will take me several more weeks to finish it. So yeah, making sure that it's so useful to put that time into it. I'm happy to do it though. It's a rather meditative activity.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I appreciate that. Just so you know, it's not just for the consultants. The finder graves on them are actually listed as part of Oak Grove Cemetery. So there's no master list for people to go and locate their ancestors. So I'm hoping once we have this list, I can give it to the cemetery department up in Oak Grove. So if anybody comes in looking, they can organize it by name and see where people are. so it will be helpful and we can post it on our website so people can see it too. And if you're doing the inscriptions, the inscriptions are a huge help because a lot of them are unreadable now, so you are quite literally preserving the only extant records. Great. Anything else before we move forward? Brooks Estate crew, what's happening with the Brooks Estate? Anything fun? How's the road going?
[Doug Carr]: I guess I should know that it's a good question, actually, because it's been it's, you know, they say Rome wasn't built today, but it did take thousands of years. And I think we're somewhere in the middle right now. But the what we did is we, we got a new proposal back from the civil engineer a couple weeks ago with the revised scope based on the new things that we needed to do besides redesigning the way the road terminates at the parking lot and making some ADA changes to kind of make everything work. And that's the last piece and then they price it. That is going to happen by year end. And so that's underway. But the big news on Bell front is that Tom Lincoln, our president since day one from 1998, has decided to retire and we're actively looking to restructure the Brooks estate and look for a new president. So if you know anyone who's interested, it's we're looking to kind of come up with a new structure that spreads the work out a little bit more so it doesn't fall on one person and then kind of rebuild the organization from the ground up, so to speak.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Great. I will say that your website looks really good. I hope you guys keep it up to date on a regular basis. And I hope people find it really easy to use as I do. I'm hoping that helps you guys get some more volunteers, especially because they'll see just how active you guys are.
[Doug Carr]: That was Jen's fear herding. That was her big pioneering effort last year. It was a big success. She found the website designers and really drove that process. So it was great.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Thank you. I feel like I've been failing was really keeping it updated, but there's always tomorrow. But no, we will definitely be spreading the word when we start looking for a new president. And hopefully, everybody here will help us find the best person and might be looking for some more volunteers for that board too.
[Adam Hurtubise]: So yeah, maybe we should. Has everybody been through the Brooks Estate at one time or another? Okay. Yeah, because I was going to say we might be able to, if we ever go back to in-person meetings or even streamed meetings, we might be able to meet in person and stream from there if there's Wi-Fi.
[Doug Carr]: There is Wi-Fi. And we recently installed a big TV screen in the parlor for the summer picnic. So we actually have a pretty good way to Connect to a zoom call, for example, and do some things that we couldn't do a couple of years ago for sure.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Summer time, you can have the meeting outside almost. Yeah, nice. Okay. And then on that note, we need to start planning for our holiday get together. So there'll be a separate email on that going out. We'll try to find a date now before the holidays come so that we can have that on the table and I'll entertain places to go. So throw names of- There's only one option. All right, all right. Yeah, there is, there is. There's only one option. That's right.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Are we in agreement?
[Adam Hurtubise]: There's one option. Okay, there's one option.
[Jennifer Keenan]: Got it. El Tequila, here we come.
[Doug Carr]: Five years in the waiting. Yeah.
[Adam Hurtubise]: So, okay. Well, that's settled. So, we'll find a date and we'll set that too. By the way, I've heard good things about the vault too, the restaurant, The Vault, where whatever the restaurant is, Sal's was, so we may want to check that out in the near future, too.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: They didn't do much to the interior.
[Adam Hurtubise]: No, they didn't. It's just a new, I heard it was a new, one of the cooks here in town who was really popular kind of got together and decided to open their own restaurant. They're off and running, so. Good, okay, so I'll send out that email. We can all decide on a date. That's it, that's all I got. Unless anybody else has anything else?
[Unidentified]: Meeting minutes?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Move to approve, whether or not read.
[Unidentified]: I need a second.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Second. Doug Carr, second. Okay, Peter?
[Unidentified]: Yes. Chen. Abstain. Okay, Jess. Also abstain.
[Jenny Graham]: I was not here.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Oh, you were not here? Yes. And Doug? Yes. Okay, motion carries 3-0 to abstention. Okay, and I'll take a motion to adjourn.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: You got a motion to adjourn.
[Unidentified]: And a second? Second. second. And Peter? Yes. And Jen? Yes. And Jess? Yes. And Ed?
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: Time to go home.
[Unidentified]: And Doug?
[Doug Carr]: Yes, shortest meeting ever.
[Adam Hurtubise]: And Ryan? No, that's no, not even close. That was last month. I got it under an hour, though. So, but last month was a record-breaking, like, 25 minutes. We were on fire, because there was no applications.
[Jenny Graham]: I am so mad that I missed the shortest meeting of all I've had to miss.
[Adam Hurtubise]: It was the shortest meeting in my entire 15 year history here. Wow. But maybe next, I mean, next month, we shouldn't, I mean, maybe we'll get Wareham. I'm going to take Wareham off the agenda. And then we just have the Court Street case and whatever follow up we have with the other properties, so. So, and that's it. And then just follow up with a bunch of other stuff. So.
[MCM00001222_SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Have a good night all. Thank you. Thank you.
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