[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: Hello there.
[Christopher Bader]: Hey everybody, so this is Chris Skelly. He's our strategy and best practices consultant. And most of them probably know, you probably know him as the previous, what was your title, Chris, for the state?
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: At MHC, it was director of local government programs.
[Christopher Bader]: Yeah. Hey, is everybody here? How many people do we have? Oh, we have 11 participants, excellent. Okay. So, um, committee commission members, can you identify yourselves? We have some new, we have some new members.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm Frederick soul. I've been a member for over 10 years now.
[MCM00001798_SPEAKER_03]: Yep. I'm Charlotte's good Eric. And I think I've been a member for about five years.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Longer than that, Charlotte.
[MCM00001798_SPEAKER_03]: Does it really?
[Melanie Tringali]: Hi, I'm Melanie Tringali and I've probably been a member for maybe a year, year and a half.
[Christopher Bader]: Yeah. Okay. Thanks for, thanks for making it. Cause you're traveling.
[Melanie Tringali]: I was traveling last week, not this week. Yeah. I got the dates mixed up.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Hi, I'm, I'm Joe Ronin, a new member.
[Christopher Bader]: Right, right. Your screen thing says Kevin.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Kevin's my son, he used this computer for school and this is my first time on Zoom, so I'm trying to figure out how to switch that, my wife's not home, so.
[Christopher Bader]: No worries.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Welcome, Joe.
[Christopher Bader]: Thank you. Chris Donovan, are you here? Okay, so let's get going. We've got a very, very full schedule tonight. We may not get to everything. And first of all, I like to prioritize applications, of course. So we have two applications tonight. One from 306 High Street, Ben Coey. How do you pronounce your name, Ben?
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: You basically had it, Chris, Coey.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay. And Mr. Murphy from 15 High Street, John Murphy. You're John?
[Unidentified]: Yes.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay. So let's kick it off with Ben. Tell us what you want to do, Ben.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Can everybody see and hear me? Yep. Right, so I submitted the application. I don't know if everybody's had a chance to review it or not, but I'll go through it. So is everybody familiar?
[Christopher Bader]: You can look at your screen if you need to.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah, I can do that. Hold on. You know, I don't even Zoom a whole lot. I use...
[Christopher Bader]: I'm not sure photos are really necessary.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Okay, yeah. Are people familiar with my house, the Charles Bush house?
[Christopher Bader]: Yes, it's a very dramatic house. More or less, kitty corner from mine. It's yellow with a very dramatic brick chimneys on each side.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Exactly, so I basically live across the street from Chris. The house has four large chimneys on the side, and they're in pretty rough shape. They've been painted over, which I think probably hides some of the damage if you're looking at it from the street. But basically, we've had leaks in the house ever since we've moved in, and I think a lot of them can be traced to the chimneys. And we get a lot of mortar and brick pieces on the lawn and around the house, basically from the bricks chipping or spalling away from the weather. So what we want to do is basically rebuild the chimneys. tear them down, or not all of them, just the two, you're looking at the house from the street, the two on the right, those are in the worst condition because they get battered by the weather, especially during like nor'easter style storm. So what we want to do is take down the chimneys and rebuild them. I've spoken with the person who would be doing the work. He has experience with this kind of historical work, rebuilding chimneys, rebuilding masonry. He has historical brick that he can use. He would plan on using the same brick or as close as possible as he could get, match the mortar as close as possible, and basically just rebuild it with new bricks that aren't falling apart. So if all goes to plan, it should look the same, except the chimneys won't have visible damage on them.
[Christopher Bader]: OK, so questions? So for new members, usually we go around the room. Each member has a chance to ask questions. Normally, I start with Fred. He's the only architect on the commission.
[MCM00001798_SPEAKER_03]: I want to ask a question. I'm not an architect. How long will this take to rebuild?
[Christopher Bader]: How long will it take? It's expected to take three weeks. Well, that's not too bad.
[Melanie Tringali]: Sorry, go ahead. I had a question.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Oh, they're, they're rebuilding the chimneys and then part of the wall that connects to the chimneys. So, yeah, it's, um, a couple days to set up scaffolding, a few days to take down the brick, and then, I don't know, a week or so to put up new bricks. They're, they're estimating two to three weeks.
[Melanie Tringali]: So are they just doing it from, like, this, I mean, when you say rebuild, you mean rebuild from, like, the, that the rooftop on up or is that what you are the whole thing? Because why doesn't the chimney go through the house? Like how do they?
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so exactly. So they're going to they're going to take the chimney down to the roof line and build it back up from the roof line. Reflash it. Reflashing in. Yeah. Rebuild it up from there.
[Melanie Tringali]: And I have a I have a question only because I live in my house is not It's old and historical, but it's not part of the historical commission yet. And we also are looking, our flues need to be updated. So if you get a chance, can you send me in the chat who you're working with? Because we have some chimney work that needs to be done as well.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: You'd say the flue?
[Melanie Tringali]: Yeah, so we had a couple of bricks actually fall in through the side because of a similar situation that you had. The rain was getting at it, the mortar starting to chip away, et cetera. The paint, obviously they shouldn't have painted the bricks, but they used to do that for some reason. It ruins the bricks. I don't know why they, I don't know if they did that in the back in the olden days and they just didn't know or, but so I've been in your house before and it was a couple of times it was on sale. So I'm assuming, do you have multiple flues in that chimney? Cause don't you have, or cause that chimney probably serves as a couple of fireplaces in the house, right?
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Right, so the two chimneys we're talking about serve this three different fireplaces.
[Melanie Tringali]: Yeah, okay.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: But we don't use those fireplaces. And actually, right now, currently, a previous owner put concrete on top of the chimneys so that rain doesn't fall. Isn't necessarily the right thing to do for a chimney, but that's what they're at right now. But the company's name, and I can text it to you through the chat as well, is Best Chimney. They're also known as, they used to be known as Boston's Best Chimney, but I guess they branched out of Boston and are all throughout New England. But Best Chimney, they do all kinds of chimney work. It's really hard to find people, I found, to do this kind of work with all kinds of tradesmen being so busy. Um, but it's a pretty large company. So their office is pretty organized, um, as opposed to like a one man or small team. So there's a, their office manager is really good at making sure that people were turning up and that kind of thing that you would want. Um, it's not cheap. I don't know if you saw the quote from the, um, I didn't see it from the application. It's about $15,000 per tune. But that's kind of, I got a couple of other courts and that's used to be what people are charging for this kind of work.
[Christopher Bader]: Anybody else have any questions?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Ben, I have a couple of questions for you. Have you tried to match the brick or how close is the brick that you're going to use the new brick to existing brick and or has it all been painted and there's no original It's still a masonry chimney on the outside.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. The entire house, all the brick has been painted. So I, you know, I kind of wanted to bring it down to bare brick and not have it painted, but the chimneys on the other house are painted. So I don't know what I'd do about that. I'd have to turn it into a whole other project and blast it. So eventually I'm hoping to get the house painted in the fall. So the, um, the brick will be covered up, unfortunately.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: So, but the new brick you're proposing is exposed brick, are you going to paint it?
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: The new brick will be exposed until it gets painted.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: You're going to try to match them more. So, I would ask, like, what flashing materials are you going to use?
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: So, right now, sorry, what?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: The flashing material that's behind the brick?
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so right now the flashing around the chimney is lead. So that's what we were planning on using again.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: And that's what's on the other chimneys.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. So that's a good thing. And then is there any... A lot of these chimneys, and I know your house well, but I don't... I haven't looked up at your chimneys, I guess, recently, but are there any shapes, any corbels, any decorative materials up at the top that maybe were there back? Have you looked at the old historic photos, anything like that, that might show some original chimneys that have maybe long gone by now?
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: It would be cool if it had some embellishments, but no, it's just straight brick. I do have some, old pictures I can look at. I don't think it had any kind of things like that on it. I can pull up the photos while we're talking. I got them from the Mike Ford.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: That would be my only concern, that you either use lead flashing, if that's okay with you.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, definitely lead flashing.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Or copper. And at the brick would be nice. I mean, see a sample of something, but if I'm familiar with Best Chimney in Boston, Best Chimney is a great detail. And if there's any historic photos or any reference of anything of interest up at the top there, you know, I would encourage you to try to replicate that if you can. And let's see if we can bring this back to, you know, last year, another hundred years.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, the only thing about that is then I'm going to have two other chimneys that aren't going to have that, so it might not match. But let's take a look at what we have. So here is a house. I get a picture. I guess you can't see it. Hold on. Let me share the screen. Am I able to share?
[Melanie Tringali]: Yeah, on the bottom, there should be a little green thing that says share screen.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Dennis might have to give you permission there.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Here's a photo of the house from 1890. I would love to have a fence like that again, but I don't. You can't really see the chimneys all that well. Whoops. And then here's a photo from, it's not dated, but I think it's from the 50s. Hold on, let me pull up the screen sharing. You guys can't see that one.
[Christopher Bader]: We see the 1890.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: We see the 1891, yeah. One second. So yeah, this photo doesn't have a date. I believe it's the Historical Museum told me it was about 1950s because of the presence of this. But yeah, that's basically what the chimneys look like now.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: So they just have a little extension out at the top, which would be nice if you could replicate it. It looks like it just overhangs maybe a half inch or so of the top. And eventually, do you plan to rebuild all four of these chimneys with the same brick? Is that the intent along the way?
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I would like to, yeah.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Okay, because I think it'd be nice to, I know it's all been painted and hidden and, you know, decades of paint on there, If you could try to do each one similar to that, they all look exactly the same in that quote you just showed us.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that would be my plan.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: And they're very simple chimneys. So I think that that's good. You know, there isn't a lot to replicate or fancy corbels or details at the top there. So I'm okay with all that. If you're higher up, good Mason with experience doing these types of houses, I think we're in the right direction.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: That's great. I'm going to pull up a more recent photo of the house. This is from the application.
[Christopher Bader]: Let's give Joe a chance here.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Oh, sorry. I can cut off. I can stop talking. You have all the information you need. Joe, do you have any questions?
[Adam Hurtubise]: If the chimney's not being used, are you going to put a liner in it? Or is it just an aesthetics thing?
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm not going to put a liner in it. In reality, I'm not going to use I'm not going to use a fireplace that's in my bathroom or bedroom. So I'm not going to use them. Yeah.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Would you be at some point, the active chimneys, there might be one, I don't know, in your living room or your dining room or something that might have interest to being repaired and restored to active use again?
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. So the living room, the living room chimney, does not have any of that concrete on the top that a previous owner put on. So we did have that inspected. It's not lying, but he did say for a unlined chimney, it looks pretty good. So he didn't officially say it was okay to use, but he said if we wanted to use like a Duraflame kind of thing or put a small fire in there, it would be okay. And we've done it a couple of times. But yeah, it is nice to have a real fireplace.
[Christopher Bader]: That'd be great. So all these chimneys are going to be, in principle, operable?
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Well, I believe to meet code, they would have to be lined. So I don't think I would line them at this time. I think code is grandfathered.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know, but I'd recommend, I mean, having been in a few homes with these fires as a result of unlined chimneys, I would suggest you get it lined if possible.
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: And they do it now, you don't even have to put in a clay liner, you can do it with the insert that they put down and they fill it with liquid without that hardens. I've had good luck with those. They do a really nice job with that technique. So if you wanted to use it, that would be the way to bring it back if you could.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, maybe in the future.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay. So I think the sentiment is generally positive. Are we ready for a vote?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. I'd make a motion to approve the application and just take care using historic bricks and replica flashings and try to maintain any historic features that were present in the original house.
[Christopher Bader]: Will do. Second.
[MCM00001798_SPEAKER_03]: I second.
[Christopher Bader]: Thank you, Charlotte. Okay. Um, because it's, uh, for you new members, uh, because it's, um, uh, It's a virtual meeting. We have to go around the room because you can't really do a show of hands. So Sharla?
[MCM00001798_SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[Christopher Bader]: Fred? Yes. Melanie?
[Melanie Tringali]: Yes.
[Christopher Bader]: Joe?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yes.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay, do we have Chris or... Do we have Chris here?
[MCM00001798_SPEAKER_03]: Chris is on screen.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay, Chris?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Chris Donovan. Chris Donovan. Yeah, I don't know. No.
[Christopher Bader]: Chris Skelton. We have a quorum in any case. So I vote yes. So the motion is we have a quorum, and the application is approved. Great.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, Bob.
[Christopher Bader]: Thank you. I'll send you along a letter, a certificate for the next week. Great. Thank you. When do you plan to start work? What's that? When do you plan to start work?
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Probably August 29th. They have me penciled in. I'll send it right away.
[Christopher Bader]: Thank you so much, Ben.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: All right. Thank you, everybody. Have a good night.
[Melanie Tringali]: You too. Good luck.
[MCM00001298_SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[Christopher Bader]: John Murphy, are you with us?
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: Can you hear me?
[Christopher Bader]: Yes. Okay, why don't you tell us what you want to do, John?
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: I sent pictures of the entrance to my house. It's there 28 steps to the front door. And I'd like to put a railing in on the city sidewalk. There's no really elegant way to do it as far as I can see. But what I've come up with is in the drawing, the photograph from the street level, I wanted to mount one inch square steel posts They're kind of indicated on this sketch I made. And on top of that each post, a piece of flat steel, quarter inch thick flat steel.
[Christopher Bader]: And then- We lost you for about a minute there, Doug.
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I'm sorry. So on top of this one inch square post, I want to put a quarter inch square, a quarter inch thick steel flat. So that I have a flat surface running up on the sidewalk all the way up to the wooden steps above. And then on top of that piece of flat steel, I wanted to, I'm proposing to mount a piece of mahogany railing. Like this. It's a stock piece of railing. I think on the drawing, I drew it to scale the profile. I mean, not to scale, the actual size. And then just to dress it up, I did looking at the Google Victorian steel handrails, what kind of details I might add to it. And all I could come up with is something like I drew here, a little curve on both sides, like a bracket to hold, probably to stabilize the post, but really just decorative. And that's the story.
[Christopher Bader]: Questions?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'll go first, John. Is there, I mean, I like your design. I don't see any issues with that. I looked at the photo that you sent along. Is there, would you rather do a mahogany? Is there any precedent for doing a steel handrail all the way up rather than a mahogany on top of it?
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: I had one guy come out and price, I said I wanted a round handrail and he just, you know, kind of like, oh no, you'd never want to do that. So this is the same handrail that's on the garage roof, which is kind of right next to it. And it's also on the second floor balcony. So it has other elements in the house. And it's readily, it used to be, I haven't purchased it lately, but it used to be readily available.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: And are you treating that in any way? Are you putting any, is it just mahogany exposed? Are you staining it or painting it or?
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: Probably put a, I like to keep it natural, so I put a stain. Yeah, my wife, I was inclined to paint it one of the willing colors on the house, and my wife wanted to keep it natural. So there might be a slight stain to it and have a gloss finish on it.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: All right, good. And we don't have jurisdiction over paint colors and things, so that's fine. My only thought was just an alternative would be an iron one, but then it is something an iron worker would have to do as opposed to a carpenter or somebody working in wood. I'm okay with the design as submitted myself.
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: This is all custom anyway. So it's a second person I got to look at it who's willing to take it on because it's not stock pieces. Anyway.
[Christopher Bader]: Other questions?
[Adam Hurtubise]: I have a question. Is the railing, the width, is that like three and a half inches, or how wide is the railing, the width part that you're planning on using?
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: Three and a quarter inches.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay. I like the profile, it's nice, but I've found that the handrails, if it's going to be for a primary use going up a set of stairs, you might want to consider something like thinner, like the two and three eighths, so you can grasp it easier.
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: I haven't seen that for outside railings. I mean, I guess I've seen that for inside railings. And that's fine.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I'm just saying it's a, just, I like what you picked. It's very nice. It's beautiful. I'm just thinking for, you know, if you just, before you do the job, if you just consider that, cause it might function for you a little bit better.
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Okay.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: I would second that, John. I think if it was a commercial railing, it would be too wide to meet accessibility codes and things like that. So if they make one that's two and a half or two, three or something like that, it might be easier when you're actually walking up and down the stair, they use it as a support, which I assume is the whole point of that.
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, as I think about it, I think I've seen something like that at Anderson McQuaid. which is another price level altogether. Okay, I'll look into that.
[Christopher Bader]: Thank you, Jeff. Okay, more questions? Okay, are we ready for a vote?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'd make a motion first, I guess.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Well, I made the last one, but I can do it.
[Christopher Bader]: Yeah, why don't you go ahead?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: I recommend we approve the application as submitted. I request the applicant to examine or look into the possibility of a narrower profile for the rural community.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay, second?
[MCM00001798_SPEAKER_03]: I second.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay, let's see. Why don't we take a vote? Charlotte? Yes. Fred? Yes. Joe?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yes.
[Christopher Bader]: And I vote yes. So again, we're unanimous. And I'll get you your certificate as soon as I can, but within a week. Is that okay? Okay.
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for that suggestion about the two and three eights. I think it's starting to grow Emily. No problem.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay, thank you very much.
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay, so let's move on to Chris's presentation. We're a little short. We only have half an hour. How do you want to do this, Chris? Do you want to just fly through the slides? Do you want to summarize the executive secretary part? Or what are you going to do? Up to you. You've got a half an hour.
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: So I have a half an hour. I know you have other things on you're trying to finish up your meeting.
[Christopher Bader]: I think I've seen your slides before, and I think we're going to be hard pressed to make it through that now.
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: But I certainly want to be able to answer questions.
[Christopher Bader]: Yeah, that's I guess.
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: Would you like me to run through the slides quickly and then have some questions if you want to have everyone ask questions?
[Christopher Bader]: Let's run through each tech. and then our questions after that.
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: All right, am I able to share here? All right. All right, good to be here. Good to meet all of you. We've worked on two reports related to the Medford Historic District. One was on establishing local historic districts, basically a strategies report for creating new local historic districts. And then we worked upon a administrative staff assistance report. We talked about the options related to staff assistance for Medford and preparing to other cities and towns in the area as well. So I'm going to start off just a few slides on establishing local historic district strategies report. Basics of local historic districts statewide level, we've got about 120 or so cities and towns of the local historic district. They've been around since the 1950s, but most of the local historic districts follow state law like we do. And that law was passed in 1960. And so that law, Mass General Law Chapter 3C, requires a two-thirds majority vote of city council. So the bar is pretty high to establish a local park, just like dumping. It would be a two-thirds majority vote of city council. I'm trying to think about some ways to make it a little bit easier. to pursue local historic districts, think about some strategies for how you as a historic district commission, when you recognize that a local historic district is needed, try to think about some strategies to go about primarily how to make your job a little easier. How do you make it a little less challenging for you as members of the commission? So one thing is just to think about addressing the misinformation and the myths that are out there, and to really focus on the benefits of local expansion. I mean, the real benefit is the idea that where you live, you will protect the place that you invest in. That neighborhood is not going to be destroyed next year or the year after that. So one of the big myths that than any other is the one on the bottom. I want to be able to paint my house any color I want. So that myth directly just in a public space or fly or something like that, explaining what the role of the commission is, how paint is going to be handled and how the other kinds of things that are exempt from review and things like that. So a good little brochure that really puts it right out there, proactively puts it out there in terms of what local historic districts are and what local historic districts are not. Next thing is really thinking about how you connect the top corners of a proposed local historic district. It's really good to try to think about neighborhood meetings, just sort of informal ways that you meet with property owners and talk about local history. Just sort of really preliminary discussions with neighborhoods so that they can get a sense of, again, the myths that are out there, the misinformation, and understanding what a local historic is, how it would benefit them.
[MCM00001798_SPEAKER_03]: And this is a really big one. Can I interrupt for a second?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Can I ask all our members to mute their, mute their cells because I'm having a hard time coming through.
[Christopher Bader]: Oh yeah, that's better. It's a lot better, yeah.
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: Great. All right. Next one is that you do not have local historic district design guidelines and You're not unlike lots of other historic district commissions in Massachusetts that don't have design guidelines either. This is a really important thing for a historic district commission to have. A good set of design guidelines are great for you as a historic district commission, and they're great for the applicants. They're great for you so that when you are taking a vote, you can actually refer to the design guidelines and say, oh, OK, this project that that's being applied for right here, this meets our design guidelines. And you can actually, instead of having a motion that has to be complicated, you can actually have a motion that says, I vote to make a motion to approve this project because it meets section 3.2 of the design guidelines. It just makes it a lot easier for you to be able to have these design guidelines to refer to. Also is great for applicants, property owners, developers, whoever, contractors, because instead of wondering how you as a district commissioner are gonna make your decisions, they can actually download the design guidelines and quickly look through to the right page. And let's say it was chimneys. You're gonna flip through the design guidelines and flip to the page on chimneys. And it's gonna talk about all the kinds of things related to chimneys in terms of appropriate work and incompatible work as well. So it makes it really easy for everyone to understand the kinds of things that you're going to approve as a district commission and the kinds of things that you're not going to approve. And this is a really helpful way to think about new local historic districts as well. because it really puts it on paper how your process works, how your decision-making process works. So if anyone's wondering, you can just refer to them and say, here's the design guidelines. Here's how we go about our decision-making process. Really would recommend design guidelines. Okay, next one to think about is some criteria when you're pursuing new local historic districts. The idea of actually usually of actually having some some locally based criteria that sets up what's going to be needed for you to support a local historic district. So it might be based on its historic associations, architecture, basically its significance, but it's going to have maybe seven, eight, 10 different criteria for how you would decide whether you would support local historic district in this area. So lots of commissions use the national register criteria. I think the downside of that is that that's nationally based. It's a national criteria. And I really liked the idea of having some locally based eligibility criteria. So it really comes from the community itself. So a good thing to think about just in terms of looking at some other criteria from cities across the country that have done this already. Pursuing single building local historic districts. Another idea to think about in terms of strategies. And there's two different ways to think about this. So when the Medford Historical Commission puts a building under demolition delay, you have the ability to pursue a single building local historic district at that time. The other way to think about local historic districts is that property owners actually proactively come to you because they would like to have a local historic district on their property. And so the one on the bottom left is an example of that. And it's a property owner that basically came forward and said, this house that I live in was actually lived in by Sylvia Plath. And we want to make sure that this building is well protected into the future. So whether we own it or not, we would like you to establish a local historic district on our house. And so lots of towns have actually really made this as a strategy to talk to property owners that would like to make sure that their houses are well protected into the future. The next idea is just to think about establishing local historic districts as part of a strategic plan. Really getting out there citywide, thinking neighborhood by neighborhood, and thinking about not just where local historic districts make sense based on your local criteria of what would meet a local historic district, but actually really talking to a lot of the property owners themselves and finding out where those pockets of support, where are the neighborhoods that really say, yes, we're concerned about what might happen to our neighborhood in the future. And we are interested in hearing more about a local historic district. So that's really trying to think citywide instead of responding to sort of threats that are coming in. This is a proactive approach. So my two photos here, I put them in. This is how historic preservation often works. It's campaigns, it's thinking about things in a reactive sense. And a strategic plan really tries to get you out there and think proactively about how best to pursue local historic districts citywide. Understanding property owner support. That is all about recognizing that The way local historic districts work is that theoretically, no one in a local historic district has to support the local historic district. It is entirely a function of your city council. However, always have to remember that local historic districts are part of the local political process. And so really, really recognizing that Local historic district creation is going to work best when it comes from the neighborhood themselves. So I put up a sign here on the upper left, that's from the town of Reading and that neighborhood that was pursuing local historic district, very, very grassroots, all the neighbors absolutely wanted the local historic district and it passed that way. So it doesn't have to be, again, it doesn't have to be all owner support, but really trying to think about not the district commission taking the lead. I think that's the key point here is that you as the district commission isn't necessarily the lead in pursuing this. It really works best when the neighbors themselves are the ones that are not only filling out the survey that says they want a local historic district, but it's the neighbors themselves that are showing up at your public hearing, at the city council public hearing, and vocally saying, we want a local historic district. There's another technique that's in use in Cambridge. It's sort of the lighter version of a local historic district. It means that there's a lot more things that are exempt from review or only have an advisory level review. So there are other options besides just local historic districts. So this is something to think about. And you have a wonderful example that's been around for decades in Cambridge, right next door. And then cooperating with the Medford Historical Commission, really important too. Both commissions are really key to protecting historic buildings to local historic districts. And I mentioned that for a couple of reasons. One through all of the documenting historic resources citywide, the local historical commission is gonna have a really good sense of where based on the architectural significance of the area, where it would make sense to have some local historic districts. The other reason that local historical commissions really help in establishing local historic districts are because when the local historical commission does things like community outreach, education, just developing programs that really support the interest of historic resources citywide, that in general can be one of those things that can really help to, on a citywide level, help everyone to recognize that they live in a really special place. And that's going to mean, in some cases, that there's going to be more interest in how we protect the areas that we live through things like a local historic district. Annual work program is a great idea to just to get you in your work in the public eye a little bit more. I think it's great to put an annual work program together. And then once a year, ask the city council if you can present your annual work program in front of them. And so that really helps you get your message out about all the things that you've accomplished. an annual work program can make you feel really good, too, because it's a great sense of accomplishment when you look back at the end of the year and say, yeah, these are the things that we were able to accomplish. All right, I'm going to move on to our next one here. Make sure we stay on time for a few questions. All right, so for the administrative staff assistance report, On that one, the idea is really looking at.
[Christopher Bader]: Chris, let's take questions on the first part of the presentation, because this is really a separate topic.
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: OK, sure.
[Christopher Bader]: So questions, comments?
[Melanie Tringali]: I think these are all really good ideas.
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: Right. Great, so I think Chris sent out drafts of the report.
[Christopher Bader]: I haven't seen them yet. I wanted to get feedback on the presentation. Okay, great.
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: Well, that's good, because I noticed a couple of typos, so I'll get on those.
[Christopher Bader]: Yeah, Chris has a, how long is the whole, are both documents together?
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: How long are both documents? I don't know, each is about 10 pages long.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay, okay, I'll send those out right after the meeting. But I wanted to, I just wanted to run through the slides first.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Well, I have a question, Chris, for you. In general, you said, I mean, we're following rules that were that were written in the 60s. And our both of our districts are from the mid 80s. And not a lot has happened since then. Do you what's your sense of given the pressures many, many communities here and the Commonwealth are under in terms of growth and demolition and development. Are you seeing sort of a widening of acceptance of local historic districts or are they becoming more of a method to sort of change the dynamic? I mean, we're just having a hard time getting our feet running uphill a little bit here. What's your sense of where we are in greater Boston?
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: There's more local historic districts that get established every year or local historic districts that get expanded. So you might have a local historic district, but every few years, sometimes it gets expanded. So yeah, there's new ones coming up every year, but you're not unlike other commissions that I work with that, that definitely have, are dealing with some tension, conflicts related to creating new local historic districts. So that's a normal aspect of local historic districts as well.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: And then regarding single house historic districts, I mean, we were told way back when that that was maybe a less than effective method at the, mass historical, you know, didn't like that or whatever. Is that still the case or, I mean, I love the idea and we seem to have much better luck with single house districts with people supporting them from ownership on down. So, I mean, is that a realistic method to approach it in a smaller scale?
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, so a couple of things. I mean, I think if you can, try to think about protecting neighborhoods, I think that's ideal. But I think there's a lot of reason to do single building local historic districts as well. Right next door Somerville, Somerville has 200 single building local historic districts. So they've been doing this technique since the 1980s. So they're definitely around. And then the other important thing with single building local historic districts is, Uh, it's actually very common to do this around the country. Very common. You're probably going to, I'm going to use a different term though. And you'd be like, oh, that's the same thing. Local landmark.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: Local landmark is basically the same thing as a single building, local historic district. If you go pretty much anywhere around the country, they're going to use the term local landmark. And it just happens that maybe we, because we were one of the early adopters of a state law. for local historic districts, it did not include the word local landmark.
[MCM00001295_SPEAKER_03]: Okay, thank you.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay, more questions, comments? Okay, why don't we move on to administrative staff assistance?
[Unidentified]: Okay, great.
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: All right, so administering local historic districts, the report goes over all the different kinds of ways that you as a district commission have to administer your local historic district. So that's application process in terms of taking in applications, making sure they're complete, things like that. The hearing process, the decision-making process, the certificates, issuing certificates, filing all the paperwork with the city clerk, and then monitoring projects after that. So there's a long list of things that need to be done to administer any local historic district. And in terms of staff assistance, there's some real benefits to having somebody help out in terms of that administration. One of the big ones that just make the open meeting law, just having somebody in city hall that can make sure all the requirements of the open meeting law are being followed, that all the proper procedures are being followed under state law. And yeah, it can help you avoid appeals sometimes because if there's some procedure that hasn't been followed, that's gonna be subject to litigation right there. You are a certified local government and the staff assistance can really help in terms of the annual report that gets submitted for being a CLG. And then I think just the volunteer time commitments, when you're really spending a lot of time as volunteers doing some of the routine administration of a local historic district, that really is a burden on city volunteers and can impact the ability to maintain a community, volunteers on any kind of board and commission just because they've got to spend all that extra time doing the administration instead of just the meetings and the hearings themselves. There's basically three types of staff assistance that's provided to historic district commissions. There's professional preservation planner staff support. So by that, I mean, somebody that actually has a degree in historic preservation. And so local cities that have a professional preservation planner on staff, So that's going to be Cambridge, Boston, Newton, Brookline, Salem, Lowell are all going to have professional preservation planners that have a degree in preservation. The next one down is going to be general planner, where the planning director, the assistant planner, somebody with a planning degree, but not necessarily a background in historic preservation offers the staff support. That can be pretty good. because at least they're gonna be familiar with state law and open meeting law and the basics of city government. Then the routine administrative staff support is the third one. And that's really just gonna be the minimum level of staff support in terms of making sure that things are posted properly and minutes are taken, just really more of the routine kinds of things. So the report goes through a list of all the communities that we were able to contact and hear the kinds of things that they have. So just examples here, we had Andover is clerical staff support. Arlington gets about 15 to 20 hours of staff support each month. I won't go through all of these cause you can read them in the report coming up. And I know we're getting close to time and I want to leave a few minutes for questions. So basically just, we have a list of all the, of how Medford compares to all the local communities. Okay, so I wanna make sure we have a few more minutes for discussion here.
[Christopher Bader]: Sure, thank you, Chris. And yeah, questions, comments?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Is the local support, Chris, is that, Is it somebody wearing multiple hats usually in city hall that they work for other, other agencies, other programs, other departments, and only give 15 hours a week or whatever. And the rest of their time is spent on other things.
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: Yep. So if it's a general plan or staff support, like maybe like, I think it was Weston would be Weston was one of the examples that has that just had general staff support. I think Melrose was one. Yeah, Melrose was general planner staff assistant. So yeah, they're going to be on all kinds of other projects as well in the planning department. So it's going to be zoning, subdivision, master plans, conservation commission, all kinds of things that they might be involved with. Same thing with the routine administrative staff support. That person might be providing that routine administrative staff support to other boards and commissions in city hall as well, like CBA or planning board too. The professional preservation planner, they're going to be involved in other things besides just historic district commission administration as well. So in a place like Newton or Brookline, Cambridge, they're going to be doing administration related to the demolition delay ordinance as well. a long list of other kinds of things. So they might actually be doing the study report. They might write the study report for a new local historic district.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: And are they, I guess they're not part of the budget for the historic district commission. They're paid by the city hall or is there a portion of their salary have to be covered by the historic district commission's budget?
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: I think that depends on the city itself. Because when I've looked into budgeting before, sometimes it was hard to parse that out.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Okay. I think one of our biggest needs, we'd love some support, I think, for meeting minutes and open meeting laws, making sure we're following all those procedures. is of critical importance to us. And I know, Chris, we've sort of floated that idea and reached out to that, but it'd be nice if we had support from City Hall taking care of some of those administrative items.
[Christopher Bader]: OK, more questions, comments? OK, so basically, I would like to follow this up. Go ahead, Melanie, go ahead.
[Melanie Tringali]: I was on mute. Melanie, the question is, you know, he talked a lot about working with the historic commission or the other historical society. I mean, is there ways that we could work with them or use some of their resources? I don't know how closely that happens. So just a thought.
[Christopher Bader]: Yeah, I think cooperation with the historical commission is crucial for this going forward, especially new historic districts.
[Melanie Tringali]: Yeah. Okay.
[MCM00001296_SPEAKER_08]: Yeah. I don't know. Do you ever have, do you ever have joint meetings with the historical commission?
[Melanie Tringali]: I was just going to ask that Chris. Yeah.
[Christopher Bader]: Yeah. Well, we used to, we used to be the same commission and then, um, partly at, uh, well for various reasons, uh, about, Was it before your time, Charlotte, or since you joined the commission that we split?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: It was at least 10 years ago, Chris, because when I was interviewed very first time, I was interviewed by the Historical Commission, and then they, right after that, split up and went to the Historic District Commission. So that's at least 10 years ago. But I think we need to, and we used to have our meetings at the same days, we've had a few joint conversations with them in terms of showing up at their meetings and they've shown up at some of our meetings during our public hearings for local historic districts. We certainly could, I think in all things, move to be more cooperative and more interactive with them. We know a lot of them over there. It probably helped to pull some of our resources for some of these things, absolutely.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay, more questions, comments? Okay, well, we're out of time. Does anyone have to drop off in the next five minutes? I'd like to just quickly discuss follow-ups to Chris's presentation. Okay, so the question is, how do we follow this up in order to... I would like to show this presentation to the mayor and to the city council. Do other people think that's a good idea?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a good idea. The city council though, as you know, is a combative group. I don't know quite how open they might be to doing this sort of thing. And I don't know, it'd be helpful, Chris, to talk with the mayor about what our, how to, what resources might be available to us for the staff assistance, you know, if that's available, if she's open to it. And whether that needs to be done through her office or that needs to-
[Christopher Bader]: It would definitely need to have full buy-in from her, yes.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but it wouldn't need necessarily support from the city council to do that.
[Christopher Bader]: No, this is too small. We're too small potatoes dollar-wise for the city council to worry about that particular aspect.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I like Chris's comment early on that the best methodology for making these things happen is when they sort of, build from the ground up from the neighborhoods, from the people, from the houses being threatened. And to some extent, that's what happened with us with the Forest Street District. But we're under a lot of burden as volunteers to follow all the criteria for establishing a local historic district. And I think we struggle with that. There's no doubt about it. It takes a lot of effort to put that over the finish line. And I don't know that we We haven't had a great success of track record being able to do that for a number of reasons. One of which is short staffing of our abilities and having a volunteer staff doing all the work.
[Christopher Bader]: So does everyone agree? Or if you disagree, please chime in. Do we wanna show this presentation to the mayor?
[Melanie Tringali]: This is Melanie. I think we should share it with the mayor. I do think it might be beneficial to, if it hasn't already, share it with the other historians. I always get them mixed up. The Historical Society, right?
[Christopher Bader]: I actually invited all of them to this presentation.
[Melanie Tringali]: Yeah, so I mean, and if they could be supportive, I guess, in presentation with the mayor have some support from them as well as kind of a two of us coming together because one of the things that Chris that you really mentioned which I thought was that hit hit it with me was really the prevention of. you know, the overgrowth of certain things. And that's kind of what started the whole Webster Forest Street thing with that house on the corner of Webster Street. So, but if I think if we could do it with the historic society and do it together and work together, that might have a little bit more weight and support.
[Christopher Bader]: So what would you, what would you do as far as concrete steps, Melanie?
[Melanie Tringali]: Well, I don't have a really good contact at the historic society, but if someone did, and maybe could have either a meeting or something in the next couple of weeks, and then see if they could go to the meet with the mayor with us together and ensure this, I think that would be helpful. I agree with Fred on the city council at this moment. There's a lot of stuff going on right now about budgets. An extra money. They don't seem to have. I think that's kind of been their focus for the past past month.
[Christopher Bader]: Yeah. So just to be concrete, you think we should perhaps give this presentation to schedule it. Ask the chair of the historical commission to schedule in this presentation at their next meeting.
[Melanie Tringali]: Um, Yeah, maybe that's a good one, and then if they agree, present it together with the mayor. That's just one suggestion. The other one is we could just bring this to the mayor without them, but I think the double support is beneficial.
[Christopher Bader]: Sure. Okay, anybody else, thoughts?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: I'd say more the mayor, myself, Chris. I think the historical commission is well aware of all this as we are, of the needs for a lot of these things. We could reach out to them, but the real support and the real ability to staff these things and to see if there's administrative support for local historic districts in the city comes from the mayor's office. I mean, I've been trying to get her attention for just reinstating me to this commission, and I haven't had much luck doing that, so we'll see what happens. So I'm all for it. I'll join you, Chris, if you want to.
[Christopher Bader]: Oh, that'd be great.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: I can come for that.
[Christopher Bader]: Charlotte, Joe, any thoughts? You're on mute, Charlotte.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Sorry about that. I would go ahead and present it to the mayor.
[Christopher Bader]: Great, great. Charlotte, any thoughts?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: You're muted, Charlotte.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay, do we need a resolution on this? Or can I just go ahead and schedule this with Fred and anybody else who wants to attend? What do you think, Fred?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: I don't think we need to necessarily vote on it, but I don't think we need a motion here to proceed.
[Christopher Bader]: I agree. Okay. So let me schedule that at really the convenience of everyone who needs to be there and we will move forward with this. Okay. I don't think Let's see. Do we have time for Joe, why don't you tell us briefly a little bit about yourself?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Hey, how are you doing? I live over on Winter Street. I'm a carpenter. I love working on old homes. I'm working on an old home right now in Arlington that was built in 1875. It's very enjoyable to me. I love Medford. I love the old homes in Medford. I'm really excited to be part of this group.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: How did you hear about us, Joe? How did you submit an application to us?
[Adam Hurtubise]: I saw on the city website that there was a opening available, and I applied for it that way.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: to get this going, doesn't it? Wow. Well, welcome. Glad to have you. I wish Chris Donovan, our other new member was present, but we're working on it.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah, thank you. This is exciting.
[Christopher Bader]: You're welcome and needed. Okay, so we're over time. So let's, Let's wrap it up, and I will coordinate with everybody. I, of course, will send out the certificates of appropriateness for Ben and for John. And I will set up a meeting with me and Chris, the mayor, and anybody from the commission who wants to attend.
[Melanie Tringali]: Can you just let us know when that meeting is scheduled, when you have it, and if I can attend, I'll try. Thanks.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay. Can I have a motion to adjourn?
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'd like to thank Chris for a lovely presentation. That's very helpful.
[Christopher Bader]: Yes. Hello.
[MCM00001302_SPEAKER_02]: Okay. Sorry. Somebody is wanting to speak, Chris.
[Christopher Bader]: Oh. Yeah, just a minute. Dennis, are you with us? Can you let somebody in?
[Adam Hurtubise]: I'm here. They're on, so they can speak.
[Christopher Bader]: I mean, they're not muted. OK. So hi there. Who's speaking?
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello. Can you hear me?
[Christopher Bader]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, this is Marianne Ducey.
[Christopher Bader]: Oh, hi, Marianne.
[Maryanne Adduci]: Yes, I'm the one that brought to your attention a few months ago, 78 Carding Street. And we had a discussion, the district commission had a discussion about that. uh... but that got the time that's late and so you amended the the uh... the meeting and it was going to be taken up again for now i think tonight you have a whole new set of procedures that you would go through to set up a historic district if the mayor approves it or even if the mayor doesn't approve this how could the public start the process with you again to set up a historic district or would that come later on? Would you advertise that? How is that going to work?
[Christopher Bader]: Well, basically, you know, Chris laid out some very concrete and I think excellent suggestions about how to do that. And I will send you that report.
[Maryanne Adduci]: We will, you know, we are... You have a copy of my previous letters. I'm sure you have my address. Actually, you called me to attend the meeting that we discussed on 78 Cotting Street. So you have my letters, my address and my phone number.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay, so basically from the standpoint of 78 Cotting, since we don't have owner support, it basically comes down to building support in the community for a single house district for 78 Cotting. Joe, just, I think you're new to this, 78 Cotting is a, is a historic house that is actually surrounded by much more recent houses. It's kind of near the, it's kind of near Whole Foods. And it's a beautiful house. And the owners are working with the members of the Historical Commission to make, they want to make substantial structural changes to the house. And they're working with the Historical Commission
[Maryanne Adduci]: And that's already been approved. The commission approved it.
[Christopher Bader]: Yes, but they're quite averse for probably for reasons of communication. And this is why this is why, Marianne, well, for everybody, it's really important that we have these historical these guidelines that Chris recommends us creating, because I think they have very false ideas about what kind of about how onerous the, you know, it would be to have their house as a single house historic district. So creation of that document, I think will help a lot.
[Maryanne Adduci]: And meanwhile, but you have to approach, but you have to approach them sooner rather than later, because they've already been approved to go ahead with the renovation. So of course, they haven't started yet. And I don't know exactly when their, their scheduled date to start is, but
[Christopher Bader]: If you could eventually approach them and try to Educate them on on on you know that this is not a harmful thing to them, you know Yes, I think that's I think that's a great idea I don't think we're gonna my personal opinion is that we're not going to be able to do anything before they do some work because They you know, they are the owners they do They do oppose it, and it's not a good candidate, in my opinion, for being part of a larger historic district, since most of the houses immediately around it are.
[Maryanne Adduci]: Well, you don't need to have their house, particularly, because their house is part of an, well, the historic nature of that is it's on 86 acres of land that once belonged to Abigail Adams' family. So, I mean, their house happened to be the site of the farmhouse. but the rest of the 86 acres around it is still part of the Abigail Adams legacy, I guess you'd say.
[Christopher Bader]: Yes. Anyway, I mean, thank you for calling. We are out of time.
[Maryanne Adduci]: All right. Well, I didn't want you to forget about this, so that's why I interrupted.
[Christopher Bader]: But I think, so two, we'll be, I think we can move in positive directions vis-a-vis 78 County in two ways. First of all, creating the document that Chris Skelly recommended of guidelines. I think once we have that document, the owners will be reassured. And the second thing is, And this is where you come in, you know, if we can build community support for creating either a bigger or a single house in our district, or maybe the whole John Adams property. You know, community support is really crucial.
[Maryanne Adduci]: Well, I understand that, but, you know, once you address the neighbors, they're going to ask me questions which I probably could not answer. I think it would be more appropriate if you had a neighborhood meeting and that you people address the neighborhood as a as a group.
[Christopher Bader]: OK, well, I think why don't we postpone this to another meeting and we will. But I think The first concrete step we can take for that is creating the guidelines.
[Maryanne Adduci]: Right, that's good.
[Christopher Bader]: And I think that I think is that is definitely something. I mean, we need to discuss it with the whole commission. But I think that's definitely something we will do as soon as possible.
[Maryanne Adduci]: Right, right. I don't know how accurate this is. But when they 78 cutting put the demolition on application, and they said that they were looking to do the work in 2023. So, I don't know if they're going to wait now until 2023 to start the work or what, but.
[Christopher Bader]: Okay. All right. Well, as I said.
[Maryanne Adduci]: All right. Well, I just wanted to remind you of this, and I didn't want it to go by without bringing it to your attention.
[Christopher Bader]: Yes. Thank you, Mary.
[Maryanne Adduci]: Okay.
[Christopher Bader]: All right.
[Maryanne Adduci]: Thank you.
[Christopher Bader]: Thank you.
[Maryanne Adduci]: Thank you.
[Christopher Bader]: Um. So, uh, I will. You know, this was on our agenda for today. We didn't make it to 78 cutting. But, um Uh, We will. We will take it out next time. Can I have a, uh, unless anyone wants to discuss it now. Can I have a motion to adjourn? Okay, all in favor? Okay, terrific. Thank you, everybody. Okay, see you next month. Oh, and of course, I will set up a meeting with the mayor and make sure that it works for not just me and Chris Kelly and the mayor, but also all members who want to attend. So please let me know if you, I mean, obviously, So anybody else who wants to attend, I can make that happen.
[Melanie Tringali]: Okay.
[Christopher Bader]: Thank you, everybody.
[Melanie Tringali]: Bye.
[Christopher Bader]: Thank you, Dennis.
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